[Public Work] Revolution Units
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:34 pm    Post subject:

Levee-en-masse as generic european cm-replacement (with growing strength by numbers?). Militia as generic mm-replacement. Fewer uniques with special gameplay (melee for Russian opelcheniye, mounted Polish-mm, Grenzer as semi-regular mm for Austrians, Ottoman with non-revolution access to nizam-i-cedid etc).
Special mm/cm-units should be a bonus not standard. Thus simplified balance (mm-rush to wreck fb etc).

PS: SAOL had a good idea about recharging the ability to call mm on page 1 of this thread.
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caveman909
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject:

I actually think this isnt really bothering the gameplay, but would be more of a "cerise sur le gâteau" (a special bonus finishing the mod) Mr. Green
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:54 pm    Post subject:

I won 2vs3 last week with Ottoman FastRevolt on 2lt-level. So revolution can be a gamechanger and should be balanced properly. As is the early use of mm in combination with good scouting in rush team games.
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Zooasaurus
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:43 am    Post subject:

For the Ottomans, i prefer Nizam-i cedit to be a lategame unit and Miri-askeri, yerli neferat or levend as their colonial milita model and name because they're all short-term levies
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caveman909
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:39 am    Post subject:

Silmariel wrote:
I won 2vs3 last week with Ottoman FastRevolt on 2lt-level. So revolution can be a gamechanger and should be balanced properly. As is the early use of mm in combination with good scouting in rush team games.


You're talking about the revolution in itself, but if the differences between the new militias aren't big, I don't see how it is a major additionnal component of the NE mod (surely, it would be more awesome, but how important would it be?).

I'd prefer to see the NE civ's revo changed to stop the explorer OP tactic first for example.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:20 pm    Post subject:

The Colonial Militias and Conscripts (aka Levee en Masse) will become the same unit and get called National Guards. The Minutemen will be reworked as other Militia units. Originally we planned for NE3 to make them both trainable and maybe make them upgrade into each other. I'm not so sure about this anymore:
In the NE3 Database we wrote:
MILITIA
These are reworked Minutemen and cheap, massable line infantry troops with meager to average stats. They have low health, ranged armour and cost food and wood. Unlike Minutemen, the Militia doesn't lose health over time. They can be used for both, defense and offense and in unique cases they might also get an upgrade. Militia can be trained at Town Centers and Towers. They train quicker than other units.

I think now this could probably lead to militia spams and a cheap unit costing wood and food are the Arquebusiers now already. Also I fear the stats would be similar to Musketeers, unique musketeer-style units and "National Guards" and I'd like to avoid an oversaturation of these types of units.

The point of the current Minutemen levy is that Minutemen are for the moment they've been spawned quite capable units with actually good stats. A trainable Minuteman replacement must be weaker and cheaper then though, but then again cheap units encourage people to spam them. Build limit restrictions are ugly and a higher pop is contrary to the idea of a quickly, easily accessible force. So I was thinking of staying with levy techs, but make more of them or allow regular training only in certain cases and under different conditions. The Italians for example are meant to get trainable unique 'Minutemen' with the intended possibility to spam them (Italian states fielded large militia armies). US Minutemen also call for another unique feature and there are numerous other possibilities for many other civs (i.e. German/Austrian Bürgerwehren, Ottoman irregulars, etc.).

In the end I think it's more interesting and reasonable to expand and vary the current Minutemen feature rather than replace it entirely with pre-programmed militia spams. After all Militias are primarily meant for defense and not delimit the already low use of Musketeers even further.

In the NE3 Database we wrote:
NATIONAL GUARD
National guards are powerful ranged infantry troops that are unique to each civ and usually compensate prior individual deficits of civs. They're not necessarily elite troops, but have all together solid stats, ranged armor and cost wood and coins. Most probably they'll train along with Militia in Town Centers and Towers.

On the design site this is still true and the stat variation per civ is also still planned. As for training sites of both Militia troops and National Guards, this is open to debate. The current setup of Militias in the TC and National Guards in the University seems fine as a standard model with exceptions to the rule. Interchangeably one or both of them could be also trainable either by default or after tech activation in other places ranging from Outposts, Forts, Barracks to commander-like units. Especially in a revolution it makes sense to increase the number of training facilities.

I'm not sure about the resource costs though. Colonial Militias are already pretty good units for only 100 food, which are only an acceptable cost because eco is low or non-existant within revolutions. The latter may change though as we plan to have some more defensive and more offensive revolutions whereas the first type would be able to build some sort of micro economy. For those revolutions the unit costs could and should be increased whereas for current-style revolutions 100 food (or a lil more) might still be fine. And surely trainable/sendable National Guards outside of revolutions need cost penalizations as well.

One recent example for that is the Ottoman Nizam i-cedid which can actually be trained within the Ottoman university and fort after tech activation.

Silmariel wrote:
Levee-en-masse as generic european cm-replacement (with growing strength by numbers?). Militia as generic mm-replacement. Fewer uniques with special gameplay (melee for Russian opelcheniye, mounted Polish-mm, Grenzer as semi-regular mm for Austrians, Ottoman with non-revolution access to nizam-i-cedid etc).
Special mm/cm-units should be a bonus not standard. Thus simplified balance (mm-rush to wreck fb etc).

I'm not sure what you mean with "fewer uniques with special gameplay". Can you explain that?

Quote:
PS: SAOL had a good idea about recharging the ability to call mm on page 1 of this thread.

Thanks for pointing out! I almost forgot about the aura and cooldown ideas. These healing auras would make trainable militias possible again. However, as I already said back then healing might not be the best way to go. It practically allows the player to restore all their health completely and then quickly rush to the enemy for offense, which is a respectable and legit strategy but would not deliver the intended result to "lock" militias only to the area around TCs. For that an aura boosting their HP and maybe damage seems more effective. Even though I must admit I could also imagine that a HP boost would only raise their maximum and not the initial hitpoints (so they'd be stuck with 1HP no matter whether their maximum HP would be 150 or 200). So maybe the healing aura is not that bad.

Zooasaurus wrote:
For the Ottomans, i prefer Nizam-i cedit to be a lategame unit and Miri-askeri, yerli neferat or levend as their colonial milita model and name because they're all short-term levies

I heard of Askeri, but what are Yerli Neferat? As I said above Nizams will be the Ottoman National Guards. Also, instead of Sharpshooters they get Tüfekci skirmishers which are comparable to the current British Rifleman UU.
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:27 pm    Post subject:

With fewer uniques with special gameplay I was referring to the original idea that every civ should have special cm and mm. That's not necessary. I would also reduce stat-variation to a minimum, to keep it easier to balance.

MM
They should still lose their hp over time. Unlike now, calling them should not be restricted to a single time but recharge after some time (2 to 3 minutes). Core of this units is a high attack and decent hp as well as a bonus against siege units to protect against too early rushes with siege units (such as a petard rush) or to kill enemies' villager constructing a fb if they are not careful enough. They might be upgradeable (or autoupgrade for each age) or only benefit from shipments but don't evolve into cm. Only trainable from tc. Only exception: Austria. Austria cannot train Grenzers from barracks anymore. Instead every Austrian fortification building is able to levy some Grenzers (as of currently). They dont lose HP as long as they are near an Austrian fortification building. With their few HP and high modifiers they can hardly be used for offensive.
I could also imagine Oprichniks (they already have a bonus against siege units) as a unique mouned mm-repalcement for Russians.

CM/Levee-en-masse.
Trainable from TC and fort only after revolting for 100 food. Few unique cm-units (keeping balance easy). Some might be accessible only if you chose a certain revolution. So instead of getting a certain bonus you simply get better cm (more range/speed/resistance etc).
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Zooasaurus
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:00 am    Post subject:

Tilanus wrote:
I heard of Askeri, but what are Yerli Neferat? As I said above Nizams will be the Ottoman National Guards. Also, instead of Sharpshooters they get Tüfekci skirmishers which are comparable to the current British Rifleman UU.

They're short term levies called from provinces consisting of entire Muslim population for a local defence. I presume that it's another term for Yerli-kulu
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:11 pm    Post subject:

So what is the plan for minutemen and colonial militias as of now? I intend to write a post on irregulars in the Spanish units thread and it would be nice to know how/if they overlap.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject:

Colonial Militias will be called National Guards now, which were essentially merged with the Conscripts known from the NE University. Ideally every revolution of every civ has its own unique National Guard with distinctive stats and visuals (that's what the first post is about).

Minutemen will be called Militiamen (to get rid of the US American limitation of the term) and their use will generally become more common and you could also say 'frequent' for specific civs like Americans, Italians, and also Spanish. These three civs have unique Militiamen (Minuteman, Cernide, Miquelet). It is in theory possible and already planned in some cases to upgrade generic and unique Militiamen into another, yet similiar unit. Irregular units are a great source of inspiration for special upgrades of all sorts of units, especially Militiamen. So if you have some suggestions/references for Spanish irregulars, I'm eager to see them. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:17 am    Post subject:

Well Miquelets (or Migueletes in Spanish) doesn't work as a name for Spanish MM because it was only used for militias from Catalonia (and at most parts of Valencia and Aragon) or of Catalan origin (e.g. the Migueletes of Buenos Aires during the British invasion). It is also strongly tied today to the Austracista side of the War of Spanish Sucession. If Miquelets are to be in, it should be as a different unit that is very clearly intended to be Catalan and speaks Catalan. I have a concept for such unit and will post when I'm done with the more general Spanish units. Fortunately this Miquelet concept art you shared earlier,



is actually a very typical, generalized look of the urban, middle-class volunteers during the Peninsular War, both in Catalonia and elsewhere in Spain. So if you have started working on that model and skin, keep it! Just call it "Voluntario" (Volunteer), the common name for such volunteer units. In fact, all the units informally known as Miquelets during the Napoleonic Wars were called officially "Voluntarios de (Place)", same as the volunteers elsewhere.

More to be posted in the Spanish units thread.

EDIT: Just found the Miquelets image in the Facebook page. They look amazing* but I don't think they should be the Spanish Minutemen. Rather they should be a Catalan native unit. Later, I'll post a concept of Catalans as natives and why I think they should appear as natives.

*No kidding, they look exactly how I imagined a Miquelet (non-MM) unit to look, except for the stripped pants which I think is a great addition.
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