Modding Report #17
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SAOL
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:12 pm    Post subject:

I agree. I've never felt that I miss ranged light cav playing with the Prussians. I think it is interesting that all civilizations don't have the exact same principle set up.

The Teutonic knight is a fun gimmick, but you can really do without it.
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roy1012
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject:

Yea, u can do without, but they do need a low cost unit for rushes, and nothing prussian like in this is cheap (120 food 100 coin 95 food 30 coin?!??) and uhlan is only low cost option, and muskets...are common.
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SAOL
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject:

Did it ever strike you that it might be interesting that some civs are better at rushing and others at turtling?
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject:

lol, that just hit me Mr. Green
i guess they are better at turtling, but im horrid at turtling so, Mr. Green
ill try them out
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject:

At the moment Prussians are pretty good at rushing on the Rhine map (free towers mean free Teutonic knights) and they can get a lot of free units (Schützen and Ulanen) through cards. Their military units are excellent and the free healing is definitely overpowered. But what I am missing is the spirit of Prussia. I mean the Landwehr is fine but useless because they suck against anything except artillery and most of the time there are some units that protect the artillery and the only reason to use your landswehr is that you do not have anything else.

What I think would be cool: normal settlers for Prussia but the ability (like a revolution but beginning with age I or II) to change them into Landswehr (I think that was planned as their new colo militia) and to change them back again. Of course that has to be balanced so the Landswehr must have a low siege attack and you have to pay something (but not too much otherwise no one would use that option). Of course that sounds drastically and it is but it would make Prussia more unique I think (and it's difficult to be unique with all these European states) and even more if you disable all "normal" military units (except mercs) before age III as Prussia (or the prussian/brandenburgian) army was rather unimportant until a specific point of time. So you were forced to fight with your landwehr during age (I? and) II (I think that landwehr might not be the right term as landwehr was introduced later if I'm right but you could easily change the name and make it an unit that upgrades automatically with each age and landwehr being the last upgrade).
What do you think about it?

Edit: damn, that got pretty long. It might belong more to the suggestions corner of the forum than to the news thread...
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Ca Putt
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
normal settlers for Prussia but the ability (like a revolution but beginning with age I or II) to change them into Landswehr
I actually suggested that already, it wasn't recieved very well however :/
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject:

That's a pity.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject:

Silmariel wrote:
At the moment Prussians are pretty good at rushing on the Rhine map (free towers mean free Teutonic knights) and they can get a lot of free units (Schützen and Ulanen) through cards. Their military units are excellent and the free healing is definitely overpowered. But what I am missing is the spirit of Prussia. I mean the Landwehr is fine but useless because they suck against anything except artillery and most of the time there are some units that protect the artillery and the only reason to use your landswehr is that you do not have anything else.

You can expect a drawback in Prussian rushes, it will still be possible though. You'll be able to do some extended standard rushes. For the Teutonic Knights you get Skirmishers at Outposts instead, the free healing will probably be taken out and may just be moved to a card.

About the Prussian militarism you are obviously speaking about when saying "spirit of Prussia", you should however take into account that the Prussian militarism was something that came up in the late 19th century and survived partially until the first half of the 20th century. The spirit of Prussia from Frederick II. differs significantly to the spirit of Wilhelm II.'s Prussia. So, the Prussians in NE don't need to be fully militarized. We still gave them obvious military boni and they have 3 strong UUs.

Quote:
What I think would be cool: normal settlers for Prussia but the ability (like a revolution but beginning with age I or II) to change them into Landswehr (I think that was planned as their new colo militia) and to change them back again. Of course that has to be balanced so the Landswehr must have a low siege attack and you have to pay something (but not too much otherwise no one would use that option). Of course that sounds drastically and it is but it would make Prussia more unique I think (and it's difficult to be unique with all these European states) and even more if you disable all "normal" military units (except mercs) before age III as Prussia (or the prussian/brandenburgian) army was rather unimportant until a specific point of time. So you were forced to fight with your landwehr during age (I? and) II (I think that landwehr might not be the right term as landwehr was introduced later if I'm right but you could easily change the name and make it an unit that upgrades automatically with each age and landwehr being the last upgrade).
What do you think about it?

The Landwehr will probably be the ColoMilitia of Prussia and the consequence would be Prussia having standard settlers indeed. I think your settler-related suggestions are a lil too complex though and historically not appropriate. Too much effort for something that really hasn't been there before the Landwehr (in Prussia 1813!). Disabling the whole army for one age would also be fatal to any multiplayer game. No, no, Prussia will play like a linear civ that starts unspectacularly and a lil limited, but becomes really good at Age III.

Quote:
It might belong more to the suggestions corner of the forum than to the news thread...

Kinda, yeah. ^^
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 5:27 pm    Post subject:

With prussian spirit I was actually pointing towards Frederick William I. Smile

I do not think that my idea is very complex nor needs very much effort. To clarify:
I know, Landwehr didn't exist til 1813 but there were other soldiers, a lot of them forced. So in age I or II you could change all your settlers for lets say 300 coin into pressed soldiers. Giving them a low siege attack, but a bonus against siege unit and a short time bonus to hitpoints and attack (like India's inspiration) as soon as you call them to arms would force you to play defensive (and Prussia/Brandenburg wasn't really able to be anything else early on). If your pressed soldiers are beaten then the situation resembles Brandenburg after the 30years war-so it seems very accurate to me Wink
Turning these conscripts back to normal settlers is free of course otherwise it would create some weird situations.

That may seem a bit unfair for multiplayer but you can easily balance this out: better exp-trickle, more hc-cards with res-trickles or a cheaper/faster age up to age III. Or some good age II mercenary-cards that could be sent infinite times for example. Or all of it together. There are lots of possibilities. In the end it would force you into a FF but giving you the opportunity to stand your ground in colonial age. And as soon as in age III you can beat the crap out of them, surprisingly (like Frederick II attacked Austria).

Plus: With each age this pressed soldiers get stronger, a different name and easier (Arrow cheaper) to recruit because the prussian army gets a better reputation (didn't they stop to punch their soldiers early on? So that would fit for age III) and (a sort of) nationalism starts (at least they wanted Napoleon to be thrown out; age IV) and you end up with Landwehr in the end.

That, of course would change the way the normal prussian revolution functions. Obviously called "Befreiungskrieg" it would act a bit different than a normal revolution. Settlers disabled and changed into Landwehr but they get a boost and all buildings spawn some extra units/landwehr depending on the politician/general/whatever you choose.

And Landswehr would be perfect for the prussian banner army, as most german states had them around the end of the timeline.

I really think that it's a cool (and very unique) idea, almost wotta like and but imo it doesn' lack much historic accuracy. I hope you think about it again.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:01 am    Post subject:

Silmariel wrote:
With prussian spirit I was actually pointing towards Frederick William I. Smile

Ow, okay ^^ What kind of spirit do you relate to it?

Quote:
I do not think that my idea is very complex nor needs very much effort. To clarify:

I know this is basically not a complex thing, but it's a new mechanic you want to give to only one civ. Exchanging units is a very powerful mechanic, thus there should be good reason why you'd want that. That is why it's only seemingly simple.

Quote:
I know, Landwehr didn't exist til 1813 but there were other soldiers, a lot of them forced. So in age I or II you could change all your settlers for lets say 300 coin into pressed soldiers. Giving them a low siege attack, but a bonus against siege unit and a short time bonus to hitpoints and attack (like India's inspiration) as soon as you call them to arms would force you to play defensive (and Prussia/Brandenburg wasn't really able to be anything else early on). If your pressed soldiers are beaten then the situation resembles Brandenburg after the 30years war-so it seems very accurate to me Wink
Turning these conscripts back to normal settlers is free of course otherwise it would create some weird situations.

Why would you want to do that? It is neither historically inspired nor are the advantages that stunning. Pressing recruits wasn't unique to Prussia and Prussia itself also wasn't know for its defensive capabilities and tactics.

Every sane player would want to protect his settlers as good as he can, use them to gather res and not sacrifice them for even 300c, but rather invest it into military units. Quickly getting an army is actually one of Prussia's key strengths, so I don't really see the need.

Quote:
That may seem a bit unfair for multiplayer but you can easily balance this out: better exp-trickle, more hc-cards with res-trickles or a cheaper/faster age up to age III. Or some good age II mercenary-cards that could be sent infinite times for example. Or all of it together. There are lots of possibilities. In the end it would force you into a FF but giving you the opportunity to stand your ground in colonial age. And as soon as in age III you can beat the crap out of them, surprisingly (like Frederick II attacked Austria).

Uh uh, touching something as sensitive as the XP Trickle just to balance a feature like this is no good idea, my friend. That's what I mean with "too much effort for a simple feature".

Quote:
Plus: With each age this pressed soldiers get stronger, a different name and easier (Arrow cheaper) to recruit because the prussian army gets a better reputation (didn't they stop to punch their soldiers early on? So that would fit for age III) and (a sort of) nationalism starts (at least they wanted Napoleon to be thrown out; age IV) and you end up with Landwehr in the end.

That, of course would change the way the normal prussian revolution functions. Obviously called "Befreiungskrieg" it would act a bit different than a normal revolution. Settlers disabled and changed into Landwehr but they get a boost and all buildings spawn some extra units/landwehr depending on the politician/general/whatever you choose.

And Landswehr would be perfect for the prussian banner army, as most german states had them around the end of the timeline.

I really think that it's a cool (and very unique) idea, almost wotta like and but imo it doesn' lack much historic accuracy. I hope you think about it again.

You do understand though that I will prefer my own redesign over yours? lol

I mean, you seem to have made your thoughts on this matter, but what has started with some "little" settler features has joined a stream of megalomaniac redesign ideas for the Prussian civ structure. I think you want a lil too much. Sorry, but I won't realize these suggestions. I hope now you understand better why. Smile
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject:

Well, Frederick William himself is, at least for me, the perfect personification for prussian virtues. And he started all the things that were later on the key for Prussia to be an empire, even more powerful than good ol' austria. He doubled the amount of soldiers instead of wasting the money for festivities (like Augustus II did) or for himself, so he was pretty militaristic and that's what Prussia is been knowing for in the world. All that seems very prussian to me, in an idealistic way of course but still.

I accept of course that the idea wont be included but I still think it is historic accurate although a bit too much centered on Frederick William because I read a book about him a short time before.
Quote:
Pressing recruits wasn't unique to Prussia and Prussia itself also wasn't know for its defensive capabilities and tactics.

Although well known in Europe the pressing of soldiers reached a peak during FW I's time because he doubled the amount of soldiers (means: he needed 40 000 men and they didn't just sprang out of nowhere). What he wanted to do is that Prussia can defend itself next time instead of having other country's armies marching through. And that's the reason why I wanted Prussia to not have an army until age III. You are right, they weren't known for any defensive capabilities but some pressed soldiers/landwehr seem more appropriatefor a country that got pretty much raped in the 30years war than an aggressive rush army, at least for me.

The xp-trickle was the first thing that came to my mind because I saw the HRE getting a slower xp-trickle than normal and so I thought that might not be a big change. Spain for example has the best xp-trickle but is still one of the worst/the worst european civ to play with. But the other idea with reduced cost for the age up weren't sensetive at all.


However I would like to know in which way Prussia will be limited in the early stages of the game. And are you redoing Austria a bit as well? Some things there are very much inspired by the Austro-Hungarian Empire which is ofc out of the timeframe (and a bit unbalanced like the heavy focus on wood).
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checanos
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Spain for example has the best xp-trickle but is still one of the worst/the worst european civ to play with

how so? they are great.
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject:

No, they are not. They are terribly at sup games because you can't rush.
The simply reason is that you can only send melee infantry in age II. And although their ff isn't bad it gets easily beaten by a rush.

And in games that last longer or in treaty games they simply lack a good bonus. Their best units are pikemen (!), rodeleros (I do not know what they are good for) and lancers which are fine but only beat skirms or lone musketeers. And their conquistadors can't be everywhere...

Do not get me wrong, I like them but compared to all the other european civs they are just crap.
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Da Bozz
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject:

Silmariel wrote:
Do not get me wrong, I like them but compared to all the other european civs they are just crap.


Then you have the wrong strategy.
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject:

Well, so tell me how I shall play them. I'm really interested.
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checanos
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject:

lancers (with cards) can even beat halberdiers (they kill x4.3 inf) also they have many units to choose from. and fast shipments. they lack nothing. they are the perfect normal civ.
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