Modding Report #20
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Modding Report #20

Hey there!

I know, I know, it took 3 months for this report! Why? Because I've more and more become a slave to uni. Now that I am in the 5th of 6 semesters in which I have to manage and work for another game project parallely. It's also the universal truth that Christmas and silvester time is party time! Wink But no further bla bla, let's just go straight to the new stuff!

_________________________________________________________________________________________


  • After a long time of thinking I decided which content will be part of the next NE release and which will likely and definitely be moved to later releases. Here we go:
    NE release notes Spoiler:


    This is a rough minimum set for the next release. There can be more in the next release, but I'll already be busy enough with finishing these things:

    • Working basic AI (modified Draugur AI) for all European civs (also includes Ottomans and Americans)

    • Civs
      Can (and does in most cases) include an adjusted homecity, new units, new technologies.
      • Danish (new)
      • Poland (reworked)
      • Prussia (reworked)
      • HRE (reworked/new Germans)


    • New maps
      With new unique natives

      • Aegean Sea
      • Alps
      • Carpathian Mountains
      • Finland
      • Gibraltar
      • Italian Peninsula
      • Scotland
      • Walachia


    • New and reworked natives
      • Arabs (replace Hashashins)
      • Barbary Pirates
      • Finns
      • Scots
      • Vlachs (reworked)
      • Bavarians
      • Greeks


    • Regular units

    • Regular buildings
      • Military Academy (Military counterpart of University)
      • Forest plantation (Quick wood source)
      • Fort (reworked availability and extended functionalities)
      • Water trade route (limited to one map though)
      • Mercenary Camp (reworked Saloon)
      • Secret building X (Mr. Green)


    • New sounds, graphics and models
      Like..
      • Gunfire sounds
      • Rifles, hats, helmets, swords, ..
      • Some new language sounds
      • Some new flags (so that everyone most of us will find peace King Green!)


    • Optional Native-English language NE download
      Standard version will be fully English!


    That's what'll be mainly in the next version. As I said, it's a rough plan and lots of tiny details and fixes haven't been mentioned here, but will nonetheless be in the next release. And don't you wonder please! Of course that's not all the stuff I have been spend my time working on the last years. There a hell more plans and concepts prepared, which are as good as these release notes hopefully sound to you (and better).
    They just can't be realized yet, because they'll still be concepts when I'm done with the abovely mentioned stuff. I do at least ~85% of the mod all by myself and I'm no superman Smile


  • In my function as member of the Modding Council [Link] I was working on the so called GrannyLib [Link] which is a library for modders on AoE3 models and their characteristics. If you wonder about the name, no, there is no fetish for old women, it’s really just the engine’s name (namingly the Granny engine by Radgametools). Wink

  • The ones who follow forum discussions may know that Scottish natives were planned. Our beloved AOE_Fan started scripting NE Scotland. There are no screenshots yet, but I can show you a more detailed and progressed plan of the map:



  • MisterSCP from K&B helped in coding the new NE Commander and the secret building.

  • Ca Putt and I have been working on the Danish AI character Christian IV, yet we are looking for a surname or family name for him as it is common among AoE3 personalities like Frederick the Great, Augustus the Strong or John Sobieski.

  • I made another new version of tricorner.



  • I did a lot of research (I guess I’m just a curious guy), to make this part more interesting for you, I’ll additionally explain what I intend to possibly do with the results of my research.


    • Since the NE timeline starts with 1555 and just because NE is trying to realize history at least appropriately, I was having a closer look on early cavalry. That includes the predecessors of modern cavalry (in the sense of non-medieval) like Harquebusiers as well as anachronistic cavalrymen such as Demi-lancers. Mind that these units will most probably not be included in the next release. Here some results:
      Archaic cavalry research Spoiler:


      Harquebusier is an umbrella term for different early types of cavalrymen. The armament was comparably light, mostly wearing a simple front plate and capeline helmet. Primary weapons and tactical usage could differ hugely by country. They used pistols, harquebusses (an arquebus carbine) and swords. This is yet one of the trickiest units to realize. It offers potential as early HC card for cavalry stats or Age 2 Dragoon. The predecessor of the Harquebusier is the Petronel, his time of presence falls into our definition of Age 1.
      Harquebusier images Spoiler:





      Demilancers are next to cuirassiers the lighter successors of fully armoured medieval knights. As the name indicates, they’re primarily armed with lances unlike cuirassiers who quickly adopted pistols and used sword or sabre for charges. So far Demi-Lancers are already part of NE, but only as an Arsenal tech that increases the damage of heavy hand cavalry against non-heavy infantry. The Italian Elmeti mercenary from AoE3 is kind of a pseudo Demilancer. I may call them like that as the Elmeti are not really satisfying in view of relevance and popularity. They’d still be mercenaries as I don’t see how they’d suit as a regular or unique unit.


      Cuirassiers were indeed standard units and never only unique to France. The question if they stay unique to the French won’t be answered within the next release though. However, I can imagine other ways to release the lock for other non-French, but still famous cuirassier regiments and thus establishing a broader concept of heavy cavalry, somehow continuing the knights concept of AoE2.


      So, these are some thoughts on early cavalry units, don’t take these for granted though, these are just ideas yet!



    • A completely different unit that you’re already famlilar with is the Sapper. Currently he is a melee soldier armed with a shovel that deals huge siege damage to buildings. While I like the texture, I feel this unit could be more exciting. Sapping is a very old strategy for sieges, so I think it could be available in Age 3 already. As opposed to the shovel, their characteristic weapon of choice was a woodcutter’s axe and so I will use it. I fancy building, woodcutting and more effective attack abilities. More to come!





  • Next to the huge researches I was also texturing units. Some of them are design sketches yet, but others are already finished. Cool


    • Sayyaf (Arabs)
      Finished.




    • Husarz (Polish)
      Sketch.




    • Clansman (Scots)
      Almost finished. Smile




    • Forest Plantation (regular)
      Sketch.




    • Jääkäri (Finns)
      Finnished! Muahahaha! Devil




    • Guard Chevauleger (regular)
      Finished.




    • Veteran Snaphane (Danish)
      Finished.





  • There are new plans for existing or upcoming natives such as Arabs, Vlachs, Scots, Cossacks, Tatars and Maltese. Arabs will probably replace the outdated Hashashins, which are obviously the copy of the Assassins from the Assassin’s Creed game series. Arabs will provide light, quick and to some extent striking troops. Vlachs then again simply need more research as they’re not really interesting and accurate yet. The Maltese (”Hospitaller”) will abandon their medieval style and in exchange adopt the 17-18th fashion. They’re good for navy, defensive fortifications and healers. Scots will be made for the Scotland map and provide offensive melee troops. Cossacks and Tatars were not only checked on their potential as natives but also on how to implement them in the Ottoman, Polish-Lithuanian and Russian civ. [...]


  • I've been looking for a German revolution unit. It'll most probably be the Bürgermilitär (Citizen Militia).



  • The Veteran Landsknecht is wearing feathers now!



  • Most of you certainly remember the German Reichstag, right? So far we used an originally unused Church model for that building due to rough similarities with the Paulskirche, which was the German parliament of 1848. However, since 1848 is not covered by our timeline, I started modeling the correct Reichstag building. I don’t want to spoiler too much, that’s why I’ll provide you only with this technical 3d view yet! Razz



    The current Reichstag building.


    Current progress on the new Reichstag building!



  • The Streltsy were actually elite troops with additional function as police. In NE and AoE3 they've always been portraited as weak, easily massable unit. While I'll certainly not fully discard these characteristics, I think Strelets will be stronger and additionally look way cooler! Cool

    http://zhaba.ru/_pics/idhlpyr31oi71pyr.jpg

  • Pososhnaya and Serfs are villager-like units. The first is a very simple, archaic type of military engineer and the latter a cheaper, but also weaker standard villager. These are just ideas yet, so no promise on these ones. Razz

  • Russians will certainly get Swordsmen in the first ages, but not in the next release. It's actually planned for the redesign.

  • Because Oprichniki were a police troop for only a very very short time (and considering our timeline way too old) and because Cossacks also served as (border) police troop in Russia, I had to idea to merge these units, which would I guess significantly raise the popularity of Cossacks.

  • Hitherto I've also had disturbingly tried to find a way to realize a unit, that was part of the early local Moscovite army ("Поместное войско"), in which the Landed gentry served. While I think it'd be a shame not to realize them, turns out doing that is a really hard job. They're specifically early troops and sorta hard to continue for later ages. Especially their unique (but highly attractive) armament is tightening that issue.




  • PredatoR is progressing with his Ottoman civ mod for AoE3. With his expertise I've been been trying to find appropriate Ottoman equivalents for the new upcoming NE features (Commanders, Riflemen, Revolution units and such). That included some quick researches on Tüfekçi (skirmishers), Azaps (light infantry), Nizam-i cedid (reform line infantry), Humbaraci (grenadiers), Akinci (mounted raiders), Crimean Tatars, Topçu (artillery corps) and, of course, the Sipahi.


    (textures and models by PredatoR)


  • The Polish stable is giving me headaches. The great challenge we face is to make it fun, balanced and accurate at the same time and even while we clearly prioritize balance as upmost criterion, it is still a hard job to get Husarze (Winged hussars), Lisowczyky, Pancerni/Petyhorcy, Ulans and (Lipka) Tatars together in a working and compressed way. Simply put: There are too much units, the boni aren't clear and the mergence is often complicated due to incompatible armament and backgrounds:

    • The current progress status sees the Husarz (better known as Winged hussar) as quick, strong, tough and high-priced allrounder which is especially useful against melee troops (preferably infantry). They're quicker than French cuirassiers, one age earlier available (Age 2), their HP and damage are quite similar, but the Husarz is more expensive. They also have melee armour and not ranged.

    • While Lisowczyky are surely a fun unit, they were really only active until 1620. Therefore I considered turning them into a Church tech or as upgrade for Ulans or the newly planned Lipka Tatar. Another idea would be to even merge Lisos with Ulans, while the question would arise if they'd be either armed with lances or sabres.

    • Pancerni/Pethorcy are flexible medium cavalrymen from Poland and Lithuania (armed with bows, lances, pistols, sabres, ..) and between the light Ulans, Tatars and Lisowczyky and the heavy Husarze. So far they had a "increase strength by number" group bonus. While the group bonus is surely fun, the stats currently interfere with the Husarz' ones. They're strong, but their role is sorta unclear.

    • Ulans are particularly complicated. On the one hand Poland needs an equivalent to Hussars or Chevaulegers (so far, this was the Lisowczyky) on the other, Ulans are sort of obsolete if there are Winged hussars (you want 'em), Lisowczyky (they're still there) and Pancerni (...). Why? Because most of these units have no boni at all and just differ in costs, hp and damage and this is pretty bad.

    • The (Lipka) Tatars are easier to handle since Tatars are the new Cavalry archers and thus have a predefined role. Question here is if they are regular units with a RG upgrade (which would be the Lipka Tatar) or if they are a fully unique unit. If the latter'd be the case, then they could be even mixed with Lisowczyky.

    • For the ones who haven't realized yet, Partyzanty and Tabors are already out.



  • I and Ca Putt have been working on concretizing the Swiss military. Read here the new concept:
    Swiss military concept Spoiler:

    The Swiss excel in fielding archaic infantry and mercenaries. If prepared well, the Swiss can play a good rush. The more the game proceeds though, Swiss will face a higher need of more modern professionals and these can’t be built in sufficient quantity. The reinforcements of Swiss guards, French troops - especially when revolting - and the extended availability of special mercenaries is present in all ages though and partially allows them to compensate their obvious lack of efficient modern troops. The very tactical character of Swiss gameplay can be utilized with the increased mobility and the occurrent hiding ability of buildings and units. The huge drawbacks in terms of cavalry and naval warfare though, precisely cuts and defines the Swiss’ shape of being a predestinated infantry civ.




Personal review: It's a pity, that I have to produce all the design stuff myself and that I have so few time on my hands now. Nonetheless, I think nailing the release notes was an important step to enable focused working in the future. Smile
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peugeot407
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject:

Very good... Once again a rather long read, but thoroughly enjoyable as well. Oh, and if you'd be kind, please tell those Landsknechten that their heads are on fire. Mr. Green


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Hoop Thrower
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:44 pm    Post subject:

It's very large indeed, that's certainly one way to make up for infrequent updates. Surprised

The civ list for the next release is what I found the most strange: No Sweden, Austria, Swiss nor Italians? Or they just won't be reworked as extensively as those listed?

Also, Christian Firtal? No?

Sappers with Axes, hah! Can't wait to see what they'll do. Hopefully something else than just bash buildings with their axes...

Is it just me or the armor in the Winged Hussars looks odd at places?

Love those Guard Chevaulegers, they look like an army of Otto Von Bismarks. Mr. Green

Don't you dare taking out the Hoop Throwers from the Maltese Mad

I'm not sure about that Reichstag model, it looks kinda bland, as if it were an oversized bank...

Hm, I'm not so sure if it'd be advisable to merge the cossack and the oprishnik, either the cossack will get ridiculously powerful or the essence of the oprishnik would be lost...

On the landed gentry unit, dunno, it looks doable at least, with a texture based of the Spahi or the Meteor Hammer and the weapon of the Naginata rider, as well as bow and arrow, it looks like something that could be done, but then, I'm no texturer.

Well, if the Sioux pulled off having 5 different Cavalry units, I see no reason why the polish couldn't have, one raiding unit (Lisowczyky), one HC unit in the winged hussar, uhlan as normal hussar, Pancerni replacing chevauleger and then the ranged unit, should be manageable, but that's just my idea.

So, if the Swiss are mostly infantry, what happened with the Swiss cavalry unit from the other update? Will it be in the new Swiss?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:02 pm    Post subject:

Excellent work!! That ideas look very interesting, I was expecting a new report for a long time Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:12 pm    Post subject:

Good to see some progress. Anyway, I'd say most of us are (by now) patient when it comes to NE releases, so don't stress Wink

I agree with Hoop on the Reichstag, but I trust that you will manage to make it look great when it's done.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject:

Hi guys! I'm back here after...I don't know, an entire year...did you miss me? lol
Well, this looks really good, specially the extended Forts, I always thinked that Forts must be most important in the game.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:42 pm    Post subject:

So great!!! especially the winged hussars...
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:16 pm    Post subject:

POLISH WINGED HUSSARS!!!

My AOE3 dreams are fulfilled. Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:57 am    Post subject:

Looks great, but I have a few suggestions.

Overall, husarze look great, but the early one could use some "Serbifcation."

Two pictures of a Serbian Gusar, by Nicolas de Nicolay's Les quatre premiers livres des navi­gations et peregrinations orientales(1567)
Spoiler:




The original etching before the book was published. (1551)
Spoiler:

[img]http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_hussar03.jpg[/img]



Pictures of early Polish hussars for comparison's sake:
Spoiler:

http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_hussar04.jpg Created in 1587, however most likely depicting a hussar before Stefan Batory's reign.
16th centaury engraving



There's also this, which a picture comparing a Polish hussar, with a Serbian hussar:
Spoiler:


I'd take it with a grain of salt though, the Polish hussar on the left does not appear to be from 1633 (like the picture says...)

So, I'd recommend removing the helmet, adding some more feathers, change the color of his armor up a bit, and maybe a shield. (Here's one from 1522 Click

Sources:
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_hussars.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_winged_hussars
http://www.polishforums.com/history-poland-34/role-serbian-medieval-cavalry-formation-polish-hussars-39724/


Quote:
◦While Lisowczyky are surely a fun unit, they were really only active until 1620. Therefore I considered turning them into a Church tech or as upgrade for Ulans or the newly planned Lipka Tatar. Another idea would be to even merge Lisos with Ulans, while the question would arise if they'd be either armed with lances or sabres.

While giving ulans sabers aren't historically inaccurate, lances where their primary weapon, and their function was more similar to a husarz of a shock troop, rather then a Lisowczyk, which was used primarily in raiding.

Quote:
Pancerni/Pethorcy are flexible medium cavalrymen from Poland and Lithuania (armed with bows, lances, pistols, sabres, ..) and between the light Ulans, Tatars and Lisowczyky and the heavy Husarze. So far they had a "increase strength by number" group bonus. While the group bonus is surely fun, the stats currently interfere with the Husarz' ones. They're strong, but their role is sorta unclear.

You need to make them a support unit. They usually flanked the enemy, after the husarze charged. They should also be fast and light, and most of all, versatile.

Quote:
Ulans are particularly complicated. On the one hand Poland needs an equivalent to Hussars or Chevaulegers (so far, this was the Lisowczyky) on the other, Ulans are sort of obsolete if there are Winged hussars (you want 'em), Lisowczyky (they're still there) and Pancerni (...). Why? Because most of these units have no boni at all and just differ in costs, hp and damage and this is pretty bad.

The only difference would be an ulan is lighter, and faster then a hussar. They fulfill the same role, and uhlans did replace hussars once they where considered obsolete in 1777.

Mixing them wouldn't work because a uhlan is light and a husarz isn't.

Quote:
◦The (Lipka) Tatars are easier to handle since Tatars are the new Cavalry archers and thus have a predefined role. Question here is if they are regular units with a RG upgrade (which would be the Lipka Tatar) or if they are a fully unique unit. If the latter'd be the case, then they could be even mixed with Lisowczyky.

There are two things you need to take in account though if you want to mix them: Lisos were maunders. They primarily pillaged villages, and raided. Lipka Tatars were very fast, light cavalry archers, who mainly skirmished on the battlefield.
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Alexastor
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:01 am    Post subject:

Y u always show Scandinavians in Discovery Age? Confused
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:35 am    Post subject:

peugeot407 wrote:
Oh, and if you'd be kind, please tell those Landsknechten that their heads are on fire. Mr. Green

Fireknechts! lol

Hoop Thrower wrote:
The civ list for the next release is what I found the most strange: No Sweden, Austria, Swiss nor Italians? Or they just won't be reworked as extensively as those listed?

Last thing. I only listed what'll be new.

Quote:
Also, Christian Firtal? No?

That's just the word for "four", right? If so, I don't think it works well.

Quote:
Don't you dare taking out the Hoop Throwers from the Maltese Mad

Hm Devil

Quote:
I'm not sure about that Reichstag model, it looks kinda bland, as if it were an oversized bank...

It is indeed quite similar and if my model shouldn't work for a reason, I can also imagine using this one scaled.

Quote:
Hm, I'm not so sure if it'd be advisable to merge the cossack and the oprishnik, either the cossack will get ridiculously powerful or the essence of the oprishnik would be lost...

Russia wouldn't be lost just because Oprishniki have been replaced differently.

Quote:
On the landed gentry unit, dunno, it looks doable at least, with a texture based of the Spahi or the Meteor Hammer and the weapon of the Naginata rider, as well as bow and arrow, it looks like something that could be done, but then, I'm no texturer.

I wasn't referring to texuring and modeling at all, but to game design. Yet it is unclear how the upgrades of this unit would look like, therefore it's currently impossible for me to approve this unit. Techtree always comes first.

Quote:
Well, if the Sioux pulled off having 5 different Cavalry units, I see no reason why the polish couldn't have, one raiding unit (Lisowczyky), one HC unit in the winged hussar, uhlan as normal hussar, Pancerni replacing chevauleger and then the ranged unit, should be manageable, but that's just my idea.

The original AoE3 is hardly my guide. Also, 5 differenty cavalry units are less effective than 3 and that is not my intention for Polish. Not every tiny task or bonus deserves a new unit. Maybe you do it like that on WotTA, but my philosophy for NE aims at making compact concepts that avoids excessive workloads for design. And I have to, because I clearly don't have the resources to produce thousands of art assets.

Quote:
So, if the Swiss are mostly infantry, what happened with the Swiss cavalry unit from the other update? Will it be in the new Swiss?

It's been pulled back for now. If there'd be a Swiss cavalryman, he wouldn't be called Twingknecht at least as the name refers to a clearly medieval system of low jurisdiction and is sorta inappropriate. So far I prefer a Bandit or staying with one standard cavalry unit and enabling the Dragoon later on.

ARG 4 EVER wrote:
Hi guys! I'm back here after...I don't know, an entire year...did you miss me? lol

Of course we did! Mr. Green

Quote:
Hoop Thrower wrote:
Is it just me or the armor in the Winged Hussars looks odd at places?

The Dude wrote:
Overall, husarze look great, but the early one could use some "Serbifcation."

Just for your record: It says Sketch below the screenshot. This a very early design of this unit and far from being final. The wings haven't been textured, even the right rider is still only a cavalry archer and the armor of the other two ones is from like 2010 or 2011. The reason I still picked it for the report is to show the wings and rough unit setup.

The Dude Spoiler:

The Dude wrote:
Overall, husarze look great, but the early one could use some "Serbifcation."
Spoiler:

Two pictures of a Serbian Gusar, by Nicolas de Nicolay's Les quatre premiers livres des navi­gations et peregrinations orientales(1567)
Spoiler:




The original etching before the book was published. (1551)
Spoiler:

[img]http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_hussar03.jpg[/img]



Pictures of early Polish hussars for comparison's sake:
Spoiler:

http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_hussar04.jpg Created in 1587, however most likely depicting a hussar before Stefan Batory's reign.
16th centaury engraving



There's also this, which a picture comparing a Polish hussar, with a Serbian hussar:
Spoiler:


I'd take it with a grain of salt though, the Polish hussar on the left does not appear to be from 1633 (like the picture says...)

So, I'd recommend removing the helmet, adding some more feathers, change the color of his armor up a bit, and maybe a shield. (Here's one from 1522 Click

Sources:
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_hussars.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_winged_hussars
http://www.polishforums.com/history-poland-34/role-serbian-medieval-cavalry-formation-polish-hussars-39724/


While you are surely right, I will most likely not include these early Hussars. They're highly ornamented and their characteristic equipment is conflicting with the later design of the Husarz. There is no shield on future winged hussars, no mace and the amount of feathers has been strongly limited to the back and even though if I'm not as consequent and strikt in modular visual upgrades as Robert is at K&B, I'd still like to extent my units and not reduce them.

And exactly the first stage of winged hussars was giving me headaches, but I think I found a good concept myself now. You'll see in the future. Cool

Quote:
Quote:
◦While Lisowczyky are surely a fun unit, they were really only active until 1620. Therefore I considered turning them into a Church tech or as upgrade for Ulans or the newly planned Lipka Tatar. Another idea would be to even merge Lisos with Ulans, while the question would arise if they'd be either armed with lances or sabres.

While giving ulans sabers aren't historically inaccurate, lances where their primary weapon, and their function was more similar to a husarz of a shock troop, rather then a Lisowczyk, which was used primarily in raiding.

I know, that's what I said, the armament isn't really compatible. Lisos and Lipka Tatars are more likely to be merged in that visual aspect. From another perspective it's the inverse way though, because Lipka Tatars are meant to be anti-cav and Lisos don't really suit that role.

Quote:
Quote:
Pancerni/Pethorcy are flexible medium cavalrymen from Poland and Lithuania (armed with bows, lances, pistols, sabres, ..) and between the light Ulans, Tatars and Lisowczyky and the heavy Husarze. So far they had a "increase strength by number" group bonus. While the group bonus is surely fun, the stats currently interfere with the Husarz' ones. They're strong, but their role is sorta unclear.

You need to make them a support unit. They usually flanked the enemy, after the husarze charged. They should also be fast and light, and most of all, versatile.

I know, but that simply tells me nothing about their role in view of boni and usage in the AoE3 balancing system.

Quote:
The only difference would be an ulan is lighter, and faster then a hussar. They fulfill the same role, and uhlans did replace hussars once they where considered obsolete in 1777.

Mixing them wouldn't work because a uhlan is light and a husarz isn't.

Exactly, but no one will effectively train Husarze if Uhlans are cheaper and fulfill the same role.

Quote:
There are two things you need to take in account though if you want to mix them: Lisos were maunders. They primarily pillaged villages, and raided. Lipka Tatars were very fast, light cavalry archers, who mainly skirmished on the battlefield.

Tatars were feared all over Europe for pillaging too. Also, Lisos and Tatars used bows, they're pretty similar.



Alexastor wrote:
Y u always show Scandinavians in Discovery Age? Confused

Y u askin' stoopit questionz? lol
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Pepp
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject:

GREAT! I can only say that, actually.

But I have a big question (regarding to my curiousness as a demi-modder lol ), what is the model of forest plantation? Confused
If I may ask... Mr. Green

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zegsyugo2
Prussian Landwehr
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject:

excellent!
its great,i LOVE WINGED HUSSARS,only big red lance would be better,and russian units are cool
in Mnb wfas you can find nice units and textures
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:29 pm    Post subject:

Great work!

Concering polish cavalry you could keep it this way:

Liso: fast raiding cavalry similar to the chinese Steppe rider.

Pancerni: standard-cav, similar to chevauleger and hussar

uhlans: as uhlans are now unique (?) to Poland you could change their concept(atm they suck, even with RG-upgrade; the only upside: you receive them for free) and give them a special purpose, for example anti-infantry like the dog soldier or you simply make them a stronger standard cav unit. Imo they could replace Pancerni or Liso via a church-tech or a hc-card, depending on their concept.

tartar: like the normal cav archer

Winged Hussar: similar to cuirassier but with melee armor and more speed and therefore better against heavy infantry.
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The Dude
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:20 pm    Post subject:

Tilanus Commodor wrote:
Just for your record: It says Sketch below the screenshot.

I'm aware, just trying to give you suggestions for your later versions of it.
Quote:
And exactly the first stage of winged hussars was giving me headaches, but I think I found a good concept myself now. You'll see in the future.

Whatever you think looks best. Wink

Quote:
Exactly, but no one will effectively train Husarze if Uhlans are cheaper and fulfill the same role.

Well, you could make Uhlans scouts, like the early ones from the 18th century, rather then Napoleonic Lancers. You'd start encroaching on Lipka Tatars a bit, but I think you can make them different enough.

Have them be some sort of ultra-fast, melee cav, with a large LOS, a powerful initial attack, but low HP so they're crap in extended fights. They'd be like melee Tatars kinda, which isn't far fetched since that's were Uhlans came from...
Quote:
Tatars were feared all over Europe for pillaging too. Also, Lisos and Tatars used bows, they're pretty similar.

Tatars were yes, but Lipka Tatars not so much. They lived a fairly nice lifestyle in the PLC, given noble status, and were tolerated by Christians. They really didn't need to raid.

Instead of merging them, you could actually make Lisos early mercenaries. They didn't hold much loyalty to the Polish state, and did plunder parts of Poland. All they really cared about was money, and in fact at times they came under German employment, and when the regiment was disbanded they became bandits.

So the Polish cavalry would be:
Husarz- (Your current concept), quick, expensive, strong, anti-infantry
Uhlan- Ultra-fast, high attack, low HP, good LOS
Lipka Tatar- RG for Tatar unit, OR a fast anti-cav skirmishing cav unit.
Liso- Merc
Pancerni- all-round support cav
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SAOL
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:48 pm    Post subject:

Ah.
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