Modding Report #20
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:17 pm    Post subject:

Don't you dare to use more than 3 characters, SAOL! One could find out what you'd want to express Devil

@Dude: I'll definitely merge or kick one unit for sure as I'm not willed to design 3 visual stages for 5 units.

I've read about the exceptional role and status of Lipka Tatars, but I'm not so sure if I should really care so much. It seems impossible to me to let Uhlans evolve from a cavalry archer, even if Lipkas are obviously one origin of Uhlans. Lisos and Lipkas clearly make more sense here. Whatever, this remains a tricky case and I'm sure I have to find a good system myself. We can still discuss this in the doc if you want. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:59 am    Post subject:

I was going to write something more SAOLish, wise and insightful, but I couldn't think of anything.

Now though I was struck by this thought: why should the Reichstag be called Reichstag and look like the German Reichstag? I mean, shouldn't it be in the home city anyway? And why would it train military units and have technologies for research? To me that sounds more like some sort of military staff college.
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Ca Putt
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:00 pm    Post subject:

Simple, because the Reichstag was constructed in the late 19th century.

The Reichstag were including actually represents the Imperial Diet thus the assembly of all Imperial Representatives. The units trained there do not actually represent anything trained there but Support from certain regions, that is agreed apon in the Reichstag. One could say It's like a second Homecity menu.
I assume you knew that already tho Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:12 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Simple, because the Reichstag was constructed in the late 19th century.
That's why it should be called "Reichstag"? lol A bit of odd logic, I would say.

Either way it seems like a name of something that should be in the home city rather than a frontier village - which probably would be true for an imperial assembly as well. And as the units don't arrive from the town centre it sure looks like they are "trained" there just as units are in most other buildings.

Anyway, it was just a thought.
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Ca Putt
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject:

It's an abstraction. The Reichstag was held in Town halls, Chruches and the like. This is due to the decentralized nature of the Empire. In theory the Imperial court was mobile and could be held anywhere, eventho it did end up being identical to the Habsburgian court. It's pretty similar with the Reichstag. it can be held anywhere, provided offcource this place is warm, dry and has a good buffet, Additionally central spots were preffered for obvious logistic reasons.
The building could be renamed "Town hall, in which the Reichstag is held". Other options would be thinkable. However having a seperate building Is most convenient for gameplay.
The units from the RT however are not to be confused with those from the barrack. they come in banner armies of set numbers just like HC armies and more importantly actually cost shipments^^.
I actually don't know if they come out of the RT or the Shipment point.
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David54181
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Overpowered

I feel like some of the units, techs and cards are a little unnecessary and overpowered. Can you maybe rework some of them and make them less overpowered?(Like the cards can have the same general bonuses, just less severe, as in lower rates)Example: There are too many cards that allow you to instantly train your units, sometimes even the unique ones, the unique units shouldn't be strong and instant, that just doesn't make sense (spamming units should only be unique to a few civs)(The desrease train time Cavalry cards or improvments should NOT decrease time for light infantry).
The French TownCenter doesn't train Sanscloute, it only trains villagers. Is that fixable?(possible put the Couriers back as the normal French settler, to make it easier)
The AI for Polish does not hunt, since you need a card for it. So the villagers get confused and the AI never even gets past age 1. is that fixable? And also the AI rarely upgrades their units, if they do, it's only the first upgrade. Is that fixable?
I love how Austria has cheaper settlers, but i feel like 60% is just too much, if theyre gonna be cheaper, at least make them slower to train, or cost another resource, like 10 wood + 40 food. Austria's Grenzers should also not be able to spawn on themselves...that doesn't make sense. And I feel like Austria's military is extremely weak and only relies on the Grenzers. You should diversify that.
Sorry if I'm complaining, I just feel like some things are a little unnecessary, and most people agree.
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Smorley_7
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:12 am    Post subject:

So the Uhlan is a unique Polish unit now? Didn't many countries have them. I know Prussia and Austria did at least, right? Why not make them a more common unit for a few other civs and keep them as expendable cavalry that did a lot of damage, like as a tactical unit. I thought the vanilla uhlan was pretty accurate betrayal besides using a sword instead of a lance. But I guess it doesn't really matters either way. Whatever works.

Quote:
So the Polish cavalry would be:
Husarz- (Your current concept), quick, expensive, strong, anti-infantry
Uhlan- Ultra-fast, high attack, low HP, good LOS
Lipka Tatar- RG for Tatar unit, OR a fast anti-cav skirmishing cav unit.
Liso- Merc
Pancerni- all-round support cav

I like Dude's suggestions. I also envisioned Poland with a cavalry based military. Maybe make the Pancerni more like a mounted skirmisher. A ranged cavalry that's good against heavy infantry. But I know new units are long a difficult to make, especially when your making them as accurate as you do.

I'm also a little sadden that the Scots will only by on one map. I mean the Scots served as mercenaries in a number of countries. They, as well as a number of other ethnic groups, could be placed in many different places around Europe if you think of them as band of traveling mercenaries. Otherwise it seems odd that the minor civs are whoring themselves out to foreign powers that are invading their own lands.

Also on minor civs, perhaps the term Arab is little vague when compared to other minors. Since they're replacing the Hashashins, why not make them Syrians?

I see what your going for with archaic cavalry but I think it will probably be a little too much. I mean if I have early access to a counter cavalry (like the dragoon) why would I use pikemen unless pikemen are just cheaper, but if they're cheaper I'm probably only going to use them in the early ages because I may not have a strong economy to afford the early dragoon. Maybe you could use the demi-lancer and harqubuser for unique Swiss cavalry because of the focus on a more early Swizterland.

I don't mean to sound nitpicky. Your mod is full of your blood, sweat, heart, and soul. It's really amazing what you've done and I can't wait to see NE finished. Go with the concepts you have now so we can all have a completed and balanced mod as opposed to a mess with 50 billion units. Any complaints that we never satisfied fans may have can either be patched in for fun after project or even moded in by ourselves, kinda like that well done NE beta AI fan mod on AOE3 heaven.
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KrakenBits
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:17 pm    Post subject:

I'd like to echo everyone else and just say that the winged hussar looks incredibly dope.
Good progress Tilanus! Can't wait for the release!
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caveman909
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject:

Very impressive work Tilanus, don't know what to say Mr. Green
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject:

SAOL wrote:
I was going to write something more SAOLish, wise and insightful, but I couldn't think of anything.

Seems I answered most of your questions then already Devil

Quote:
Now though I was struck by this thought: why should the Reichstag be called Reichstag and look like the German Reichstag? I mean, shouldn't it be in the home city anyway? And why would it train military units and have technologies for research? To me that sounds more like some sort of military staff college.

That's a valid point you make and Ca Putt also correctly puts it as "second homecity". Just the moment in time in which you're asking that really surprises me (the Reichstag is already included in NE 2.01).
The reasons for making this a real building can rather be found in the attempt to continue analogies of AoE3 and the intention to give that civ that odd feel it deserves historically than in looking for the easiest way to include this feature.
As for the analogies, I'd refer to a mix of university and consulate. The consulate in particular does something quite similar like the Reichstag as it is some kind of "embassy" in which you pay for foreign/allied troops with an extra resource. Now, I didn't want to introduce the Import resource for the sake of it, so shipments where just fine. That again isn't a new thing either, looking at some of the University techs.. Wink

David54181 wrote:
I feel like some of the units, techs and cards are a little unnecessary and overpowered. Can you maybe rework some of them and make them less overpowered?(Like the cards can have the same general bonuses, just less severe, as in lower rates)Example: There are too many cards that allow you to instantly train your units, sometimes even the unique ones, the unique units shouldn't be strong and instant, that just doesn't make sense (spamming units should only be unique to a few civs)(The desrease train time Cavalry cards or improvments should NOT decrease time for light infantry).

I'm willed to do that, but I can only promise to find these techs somehow on my own. If you really want it to happen, please make a list of these annoying techs. That'd raise the chance of me changing that significantly. thumbs up!

Quote:
The French TownCenter doesn't train Sanscloute, it only trains villagers. Is that fixable?(possible put the Couriers back as the normal French settler, to make it easier)

I'm not so sure for giving French unique settlers at all. After all, the French in NE will in future versions play very differently to the AoE3 French.

Quote:
The AI for Polish does not hunt, since you need a card for it. So the villagers get confused and the AI never even gets past age 1. is that fixable? And also the AI rarely upgrades their units, if they do, it's only the first upgrade. Is that fixable?

Yes, it'll be fixed in the next release. Smile

Quote:
I love how Austria has cheaper settlers, but i feel like 60% is just too much, if theyre gonna be cheaper, at least make them slower to train, or cost another resource, like 10 wood + 40 food. Austria's Grenzers should also not be able to spawn on themselves...that doesn't make sense. And I feel like Austria's military is extremely weak and only relies on the Grenzers. You should diversify that.
Sorry if I'm complaining, I just feel like some things are a little unnecessary, and most people agree.

No, thanks for your input, I really rely on that to rework content that I haven't originally done myself. I made some notes. However, Austria really is far from being too weak. The hussars and Line infantry are pretty good units.

Smorley_7 wrote:
So the Uhlan is a unique Polish unit now? Didn't many countries have them. I know Prussia and Austria did at least, right? Why not make them a more common unit for a few other civs and keep them as expendable cavalry that did a lot of damage, like as a tactical unit. I thought the vanilla uhlan was pretty accurate betrayal besides using a sword instead of a lance. But I guess it doesn't really matters either way. Whatever works.

Prussia had some Uhlans, but they were called Bosniaks. Since Prussia already gets powerful Totenkopfhusaren (Death Head's Hussars) and is actually not meant to be a superb cavalry civ I made Uhlans available on via Church tech (which sends the forementioned 'Bosniaks'). There are three of them right now, could be two in the end though as well.

Generally there were some Uhlan regiments in other European states, however, they were far from being as popular and common as in Poland. Wink

Quote:
I'm also a little sadden that the Scots will only by on one map. I mean the Scots served as mercenaries in a number of countries. They, as well as a number of other ethnic groups, could be placed in many different places around Europe if you think of them as band of traveling mercenaries. Otherwise it seems odd that the minor civs are whoring themselves out to foreign powers that are invading their own lands.

I originally planned the Clansman as European mercenary. Ca Putt then noted that the Highlander already is a mercenary from Scotland. But maybe I'll change my mind here.

Quote:
Also on minor civs, perhaps the term Arab is little vague when compared to other minors. Since they're replacing the Hashashins, why not make them Syrians?

I'm not trying to stylize the Arabs as successors of the Hashashins. They just replace the Hashashins because they work on the same maps and - most importantly - fit the timeline. Also it's already hard for me to find good info on Arabs, I'll hardly find more and better sources on any people in particular.

Quote:
I see what your going for with archaic cavalry but I think it will probably be a little too much. I mean if I have early access to a counter cavalry (like the dragoon) why would I use pikemen unless pikemen are just cheaper, but if they're cheaper I'm probably only going to use them in the early ages because I may not have a strong economy to afford the early dragoon. Maybe you could use the demi-lancer and harqubuser for unique Swiss cavalry because of the focus on a more early Swizterland.

Pikemen are meant to be units for early gameplay. It's a rather natural development that more modern troops will dominate them. Wink Demi-lancers and Harquebusiers as Swiss UU look utterly arbitrary and wrong choices to me.

Quote:
I don't mean to sound nitpicky. Your mod is full of your blood, sweat, heart, and soul. It's really amazing what you've done and I can't wait to see NE finished. Go with the concepts you have now so we can all have a completed and balanced mod as opposed to a mess with 50 billion units. Any complaints that we never satisfied fans may have can either be patched in for fun after project or even moded in by ourselves, kinda like that well done NE beta AI fan mod on AOE3 heaven.

Thanks! Smile


@KrakenBits: Just wait until you see them with a real texture. King Green!

caveman909 wrote:
Very impressive work Tilanus, don't know what to say Mr. Green

Merci! How about recording some voices? lol
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Just the moment in time in which you're asking that really surprises me (the Reichstag is already included in NE 2.01).
I know, and to be honest I've always thought it is a bit strange. I just came to think of it just now.

Even if it is an analogy it is a bit strange, because it's not obvious and not quite present anywhere else in the game (perhaps with the exception of the Asian wonders; in a similar way I've always thought it strange to have a bunch of great wonders crammed so closely to each other in a to them completely foreign part of the world), at least not in the same way or to the same extent.
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David54181
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:18 am    Post subject:

Quote:
I'm willed to do that, but I can only promise to find these techs somehow on my own. If you really want it to happen, please make a list of these annoying techs. That'd raise the chance of me changing that significantly.

How would you want me to go about that? Email a list of them and my ideas? or just put them on this forum?

Quote:
I'm not so sure for giving French unique settlers at all. After all, the French in NE will in future versions play very differently to the AoE3 French.
Alright. Is there a way to fix it then? It gets somewhat annoying.

And thank you very much for responding!
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:28 am    Post subject:

David54181 wrote:
How would you want me to go about that? Email a list of them and my ideas? or just put them on this forum?

Better post it here. Smile

Quote:
Alright. Is there a way to fix it then? It gets somewhat annoying.

I wonder, did you install the 7.1 Hotfix as well? I think this was fixed in there, if not, your problem looks quite new or .. individual to me. Confused
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:41 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Better post it here.

I will get on that as soon as possible. Do you want just the names of the techs and cards or what?

Quote:
I wonder, did you install the 7.1 Hotfix as well? I think this was fixed in there, if not, your problem looks quite new or .. individual to me.

Yes I installed the hotfix, other people I play with seem to have that problem too.
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ARG 4 EVER
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject:

There is a bug in the AI that causes the players controlled by the AI don't build docks or create ships, they can receive ships from the home city, recently I was playing as Sweden with the Swiss as allies, against British and Americans in Vinland, and the Swiss received two galleons from Bern, but they don't move the galleons in all the game, and they didn't built a dock, the British and Americans didn't built docks neither, it's possible to fix it?
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Smorley_7
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:30 am    Post subject:

Quote:
I originally planned the Clansman as European mercenary. Ca Putt then noted that the Highlander already is a mercenary from Scotland. But maybe I'll change my mind here.

I was actually suggesting that the Scots (and other minors) could be used on other euro maps and not just their homeland. Example; France had few Scottish regiments and many Scottish immigrants, so if a map were ever to take place in a French region you could Scots in it. I just think it's a waste of a minor civ to only appear on one map. But I know maps are long and hard to do, so, never mind. Only maps you reveled that I think you could get away with Scots is maybe Gibraltar. That or maybe some Americas maps where there were large Scottish immigration.

Quote:

Pikemen are meant to be units for early gameplay. It's a rather natural development that more modern troops will dominate them. Wink Demi-lancers and Harquebusiers as Swiss UU look utterly arbitrary and wrong choices to me.

I think I worded that all wrong. I was trying to say is fitting in Demi-lancers and Harquebursiers would be arbitrary to do mechanically. Then again I don't know exactly what your NE unit mechanics are.
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