Modding Report #20
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Chzchan
French Conscript
French Conscript


Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: Overpowered

David54181 wrote:
I feel like some of the units, techs and cards are a little unnecessary and overpowered. Can you maybe rework some of them and make them less overpowered?(Like the cards can have the same general bonuses, just less severe, as in lower rates)Example: There are too many cards that allow you to instantly train your units, sometimes even the unique ones, the unique units shouldn't be strong and instant, that just doesn't make sense (spamming units should only be unique to a few civs)(The desrease train time Cavalry cards or improvments should NOT decrease time for light infantry).


Certain cards that seem overpowered are there to diversify the game and make each civ unique in its own way.

There are indeed many fast-training cards, but not every civ can attain insta-spawn.

There are only a select few that can insta-spawn their major units such as the Swiss and the Swedes.

Most other civs comes close to insta-spawn, but only really get the training point timer down to ~20% of what it should be rather than 0%.

David54181 wrote:
The French TownCenter doesn't train Sanscloute, it only trains villagers. Is that fixable?(possible put the Couriers back as the normal French settler, to make it easier)


Those are not meant to be a "unique settler" for the French like Settler Wagons sort of are for the Germans.

They are there to help you get off to a good start early game with a decent economy and fast access to upgrades.

David54181 wrote:

The AI for Polish does not hunt, since you need a card for it. So the villagers get confused and the AI never even gets past age 1. is that fixable? And also the AI rarely upgrades their units, if they do, it's only the first upgrade. Is that fixable?


That should definitely be fixed.

David54181 wrote:

I love how Austria has cheaper settlers, but i feel like 60% is just too much, if theyre gonna be cheaper, at least make them slower to train, or cost another resource, like 10 wood + 40 food. Austria's Grenzers should also not be able to spawn on themselves...that doesn't make sense. And I feel like Austria's military is extremely weak and only relies on the Grenzers. You should diversify that.


Austria's cheap settlers are part of what make it unique. It pretty much means you need less food when building your economy which allows you to truly boom.

I don't think you have played the Austrians enough if you think that Grenzers are what the Austrian military relies on. They are one of the Austrian's most unique units, but they shouldn't be considered the main force behind the Austrian army. Also, if you take away the Grenzers' ability to spawn like bacteria, they can no longer be "relied on" as you have mentioned.

Grenzers are hit-and-run skirmishers that have a neat rock-paper-scissors-breaking bonus against artillery. They are fragile and deal very little damage, so the bacterial spawning makes up for this. You should think of them as your Special Forces that you can use to take out big artillery targets through flanking and sneaking maneuvers.

The bacterial spawn should not be used to allow them to engage in direct combat over long periods of time. This is a waste of resources and will eventually lead to their destruction if used exclusively, especially in the face of cavalry which Grenzers have no defense against.

The bacterial spawn is to be used as a sort of recovery after a successful or unsuccessful hit-and-run. Since they will most likely be used to take down cannons, many will be lost, especially because of how little health they have.

The bacterial spawn can become overpowered if you are paired up with the right teammates or if certain cards and techs are used in a certain order, however. If you attain insta-spawn Grenzers, the game is just over so long as you keep a close eye on them at all times.

Because of this, I believe that the Grenzer unit should have its train points increased so that it can never truly be insta-spawned even with the right team cards.

You have Line Infantry as well which have a unique ranged bonus against cavalry and light infantry as opposed to the musketeer melee-only bonus against the respective units. These should be a major force in your army.

If you had not noticed it before, you get two cards that reduce the train time for cavalry units. This should definitely be taken advantage of because you actually attain insta-spawn after sending both of the cards plus the Mass Cavalry church tech.

Cavalry, used as meat-shields, and Line Infantry should be the majority of your forces which are to be supported by the unique and stealthy Grenzers and maybe some good old Skirmishers to help your Line Infantry take out Light Cavalry.

Using your Keeps as bases of operation, you should be able to spread across the map and keep the heat on your enemies. Playing Austrians is essentially like becoming an epidemic.

Austria is a neat civ that I think is fine. The only thing that should really be changed is the Grenzer train points so insta-spawn Grenzers never happen.

David54181 wrote:

In general: There are too many instant spawning units (only a few civs should have that). Some units are too strong against certain things (like the multiplier against certain units is too much) (I'll explain civ by civ). The Riding School Card should NOT allow decrease light infantry training time, infantry don't ride horses... And also for the Mass Cavalry Church upgrade. Artillery regiments in the Capitol should be lowered to about -25-35%.


I do agree that Riding School should not decrease the training time for light infantry.

I also agree that the Artillery Regiment tech at the Capitol should be nerfed a bit as it allows almost every civ that has access to Grenadiers to insta-spawn them. All-out Grenadier wars are very commonplace in games that I play with my comrades.

David54181 wrote:

Swiss: Switzerland is a very unique and fun civ to play. The problem I have with it: the Followers are too strong, the hand infantry is way too powerful and quick spawning, if Followers are allowed to make Berry Bushes then they shouldn't be incredibly good at gathering from them (just makes it more fair), there is trouble getting to 200 pop cap ( Not enough tents).

Swiss Cards: TEAM Peasant Militia: Hand Infantry Train Faster (-35%) this card is very useful, but it should not be available in Age 1 and the severity should be lowered (Perhaps -15% or -25%)
Swiss Clockword: All upgrades and building are completed faster, and units train slighty faster. General -60% is a bit too much for age 2, perhaps down to 35-45 or so. The rest is fine.
Talgenossenchaft: all mercenary unit shipments are cheaper, you can train Swiss Pike at Saloon and Headquarters. Perhaps move this to a later age, with all the upgrades Swiss Pikemen are very good at this age.
Elite Follow Corps: Followers father all resources faster. Followers already gather really fast, perhaps lower this to 8% (Since it is EVERY resource)
Marching Order: Follower and infantry speed increased( 15%). Perhaps change to 10% since it deals with ALL infantry and the Swiss relly on infantry.
Gewalthaufen: Heavy infantry does more damage agaisnt Cav and Light Infantry, and increased range for Reislaufers and Swiss Pikemen. Maybe lower the severity for this, hand infantry are already insanely strong against both Cav and Light Infantry
Battle of Marignano: Swiss Pike damage and hitpoints greatly increased. With the upgrades from the saloon and all other cards, the Swiss Pike are over powered, perhaps lower this cards severity or make it to where it makes the Swiss Pike cost more coin(maybe 25%)
Undermining Techniques: Petards and Sappers can use stealth. I think this card is a huge annoyance. Do what you want with it.
Follower Combat: Your followers are much stronger in combat (Hp and Damage by 50%). This card is TOO much. Followers are insanely strong! This card should be removed or lowered greatly. (10-15%)
Great Camp: Bivouacs and tents are cheaper,stronger, and built more quickly. This card is nice, but not for Age 1, it is too much. Just lower the severity of it and change the Age.


I do agree that Followers are a bit too strong, but I do not think that their Hand Infantry is too strong. The entire civ is based around Hand Infantry, after all.

Don't forget that Followers are your economy. Every Follower you send out to fight is one Follower that isn't contributing to your economy.

I believe that they are a bit too powerful when used in rushes at the beginning of the game, however. I think that they should start out much weaker combat-wise, but have upgrades via tent techs to increase their combat abilities as you age up on top of the already existing age up buffs.

The tech should be similar to the series of techs that are used to increase Follower limit and add to XP trickle in terms of age-locking and cost. They will bring them back up to the strength they have currently, but only once age-ups have been completed plus the newly instituted techs. The change would just make it so more must be invested into the Followers before they can become incredibly powerful.



I for one have no problem with the low population cap of the Swiss. I believe that they would become fairly overpowered if their cap was increased to 200. This civ is meant to have a low population cap because it keeps the population cap of strictly military units at ~100 if you have near maximum or maximum Followers and a maxed out Swiss economy.

I don't understand why you would want to nerf so many aspects of the Swiss based on the fact that they "rely on infantry." Of course they rely on infantry. Infantry is what the civ is based around.

The Swiss get completely destroyed by artillery and ranged units in general and cannot compete with the economies of pretty much every other civ near end game. They deserve to have incredibly powerful, fast infantry units with incredibly large multipliers against the units that they already beat. Because they have little to no ranged options, they should absolutely destroy in CQC because it is the only place that they stand a chance.

The Swiss have their weaknesses too, you know. They may be powerful rushers, but in treaty games they are at a severe disadvantage.

All the civs in AOE3 NE (bar the Spanish and maybe the Portuguese) have techs, cards, and mechanics that make them unique and seemingly overpowered. It is the fact that they are "overpowered" in their own way that makes the game fun and interesting. Having to adapt to situations based on what civ I am up against and what civ I am playing is what truly makes this game challenging and enjoyable.

David54181 wrote:

Germany: This civ is wonderful upgrade from the previous one. But compared to other NE civs, it isn't all that good. Problems: Compared to other civs, Germany has no instant training units. Maybe add a card that decreases all by 10-15%. The Reichstag Troops are the slowest, maybe make a card that decreases the time or allows the troops to be made from barracks and stables.
If the Katsbalger is a Heavy Infantry musket troops, it should not have a multiplier agaisnt Heavy Infantry, perhaps remove that but add more ranged damage (like a normal Musketeer troop)


I find it funny that you complained about how there are too many units that are capable of insta-spawn, yet you complain here that Germany has no insta-spawning units.

Germany doesn't need those in order to compete with the other civs.

Germany has a monster economy that you can take advantage of once you attain the card that allows you to train Settler Wagons from farms.

You also have the ability to make Imperial Cannons from Artillery Foundries.

Sure, Germany may seem a bit bland when compared to other civs with incredibly unique mechanics, but that's why it is being renovated by the Devs.

I can't wait for Banner Armies.

David54181 wrote:

France: Nothing really wrong with them. Except that villager bug in the town center, it spawns villagers instead of the unique French settler.
Also what is up with the Chasseur and Grognard? Why do they cost shipments? That is annoying. Increase the cost of them atleast but dont let them cost shipments. Also that Blockade Tech at the university should be removed.


That is not a bug. Those unique settlers you speak of are there to help, not to be your main settlers.

The reason why they cost shipments is because they are incredibly powerful.

David54181 wrote:

Sweden: This is probably the most over powered civ out there. it makes the French on TAD look like a little child. Don't get me wrong, Sweden rocks! but some things should be removed and edited. The major problem is the overpowered bonus the units receive from the Torp upgrades, take those Aura upgrades out completely or lower their severity extremely.

Sweden Cards: Team Early Horse Artillery: available earlier and trains much faster. Just no... this is too much. Horse Artillery is too strong and it being earlier and training faster?? No. Remove this or decrease the train time by a lot.
Reformation: Villagers gather resources faster. I would say lower this to about 10 or 12%.
Great Northern Forests: Villagers and Torps gather wood faster (30%). Perhaps lower this to 20 or 25% or make torps cost more wood to build.
Allotment System: military units train faster. Perhaps lower this to 20 or 25%
Cronstedt Reforms: Artillery and seige units move faster (20%). Perhaps lower this to 15% or 10%
Svea Arteriregemente: heavy inf do more damage (25%). Maybe lower the damage to 15% and add 10% to hitpoints.
Savolax Jagerregemente: improves speed of skirmishers and enables stealth. 25% speed???? holy moley! Lower that to around 10 or 15%
Northern Warriors: allows training of Swedish Fusiliers and Hackapells at Saloon. Perhaps lower the Damage and hitpoints bonus to about 10% because theyre already super strong.


Sweden is one of the only civs that I will admit is pretty overpowered. The insta-spawn artillery and Torp Supersoldiers truly put them over the top.

In comparison to the Russians or Chinese that have a slightly increased population cap and the means to create mass armies of cheap, weak units, the Swedish are just on a whole other plane of existence. And then on top of the Supersoldiers that you attain through various cards and the massive Torp bonus, you get instantly spawning artillery.

The 50 settler cap and the increased base price of the units does not make up for how incredibly strong they are, especially because of how quickly you can spawn them with the right cards.

I may have a simple fix for this, but this might also be my na´vety speaking. I have played every civ thoroughly enough to figure out the meta that most civs hold deep within them, but I will surely need some second opinions on this idea.

Just increase the population space that all non-artillery military units take up by 1. This will compensate for the fact that they not only train quickly thanks to the Allotment System, Fencing School, and the church techs, but are incredibly powerful thanks to the Torp bonus and the many cards that vastly increase their stats.

David54181 wrote:

Austria: I love this Civ, very cool. Again I believe the settlers are a little too cheap. But do with that what you want. I also think they need another Cav unit, Hussars and Dragoons are boring. I also think the RANGED multiplier for line infantry against light infantry and Cav should be lowered slightly. But then add the card Fencing School, to decrease the train time, because compared to other Civs, the infantry train VERY slow (other than Grenzers..).

Austrian Cards: House Of Habsburg: age upgrades cost less food and are completed more quickly. For this card, since its in Age 1. I think it should either make the age come faster, or lower food, not both.
TEAM Balkan Cavalry: Cavalry units train faster. Take off the Light Infantry train time.
Skirmishing Tactics: Grenzer Range and speed improved. Lower the speed to around .25
Military Frontier: Grenzers stealth, and recruit additional Grenzers and train faster. This is one of the weirdest cards I have seen. They should NOT be allowed to spawn on each other. Do they make love right in the field and spawn more Grenzer babies? That should be removed.


Addressed earlier. Austrians are fine.

Grenzers should not be allowed to attain insta-spawn, though.

They do not need Fencing School. That would give them insta-horses and insta-infantry.

The horses, although boring and not unique, are the front-linesmen of your army that take the brunt of the damage while your other units fire away. The fact that you can insta-spawn them emphasizes this point even more.

David54181 wrote:

America: One of my favorites. Not much is wrong with them either. You should show if the Miners are better at mining that the Villagers, cause all it says is that they can fight. If i find anything, I'll let you know.


If you don't think America is overpowered, you haven't seen or used them correctly at all. If you take advantage of every aspect of American mechanics as well as the few glitches that currently exist, you can stack more Gold than the Dutch at an even faster rate, have a standing instantly-spawning army of both Cavalry and Infantry, and the strongest Skirmishers (relative to cost) with the longest range in the game.

See...

http://www.ne.elpea.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=89&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=64

and

http://www.ne.elpea.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=89&start=80&sid=b9ff1ce6d0e087c89ff5f429c9eb4416

...for in-depth explanations.

At this point, I certainly think you need to play the civs you have complaints about a bit more before thinking of how to "fix" them. A few of the points you brought up show a clear lack of in-depth knowledge about each civ.


Now that the annual AOE season has begun within my group of friends, this game, its mechanics, and creative thoughts about it will be literally pumping through my veins and up into my cerebral cortex at every waking hour of the day for the next couple of months.

Having multiple AOE2 and AOE3 games on days when the majority of us do not have lectures or plans from February until April has become a tradition ever since we were exposed to AOE2 back when we were still children.

With the upcoming version of Napoleonic Era closing in, I can not help but want to contribute in some way after playing using this mod for the past few years.

I know that Version 3 will more than likely not be out by the time the AOE season mentality ends for myself and my friends, but I will try do as much as I can to make next year's AOE season even more fun than the last.
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RoyalGuard
Austrian Line Infantry
Austrian Line Infantry


Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:13 am    Post subject: Forest plantation

So forest plantation means overpowered Austrians? I approve hah
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Chzchan
French Conscript
French Conscript


Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Forest plantation

RoyalGuard wrote:
So forest plantation means overpowered Austrians? I approve hah


Yeah, that is something I would like to have a discussion about.

From a balance perspective, wood isn't annoying to obtain for no reason. It keeps the production of certain units in check because wood is the only map-dependent resource that cannot be generated out of nothing. Unit upgrades and various other techs are also reliant on wood, increasingly so as one ages up.

Having wood be readily available in plantation format would definitely imbalance certain civs even though their intention is to make it a less annoying resource to gather.

What age would it be available without techs/cards? Age 3? Age 4?

How much would it cost to build? The same as plantations? More than plantations?

How fast would it generate wood? How many techs would be available to boost gather rates?

I hope that we can get a good balance discussion about the future of NE because I know new features added to the general game and to certain civs may have drastic or maybe even unintended effects on the game.
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Tilanus Commodor
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:52 am    Post subject: Re: Overpowered

Chzchan wrote:

Certain cards that seem overpowered are there to diversify the game and make each civ unique in its own way.

There are indeed many fast-training cards, but not every civ can attain insta-spawn.

I'm aware of that and I'll probably make a big reset in the future, cause I'm sick of discovering step by step how imba NE tends to be at certain spots.

Quote:
I do agree that Riding School should not decrease the training time for light infantry.

I also agree that the Artillery Regiment tech at the Capitol should be nerfed a bit as it allows almost every civ that has access to Grenadiers to insta-spawn them. All-out Grenadier wars are very commonplace in games that I play with my comrades.

Noted.
Quote:
All the civs in AOE3 NE (bar the Spanish and maybe the Portuguese) have techs, cards, and mechanics that make them unique and seemingly overpowered. It is the fact that they are "overpowered" in their own way that makes the game fun and interesting. Having to adapt to situations based on what civ I am up against and what civ I am playing is what truly makes this game challenging and enjoyable.

That's an interesting view on things. I think though - and even Alexastor admitted - there's lots of feature creep responsible for that. The good side surely is that the partial imba/OPness is fun for those who use it, but the quality of content suffers and the game has become even faster. It often looks headless to me.

Quote:
Now that the annual AOE season has begun within my group of friends, this game, its mechanics, and creative thoughts about it will be literally pumping through my veins and up into my cerebral cortex at every waking hour of the day for the next couple of months.

Having multiple AOE2 and AOE3 games on days when the majority of us do not have lectures or plans from February until April has become a tradition ever since we were exposed to AOE2 back when we were still children.

With the upcoming version of Napoleonic Era closing in, I can not help but want to contribute in some way after playing using this mod for the past few years.

I know that Version 3 will more than likely not be out by the time the AOE season mentality ends for myself and my friends, but I will try do as much as I can to make next year's AOE season even more fun than the last.

I've both noted and appreciated the input from you and David54181 and I'd consider myself happy to have that advice more often around me. I'm always looking for helping hands. The civs in "NE 3" will feel quite different to what you know from 2.01, particularly at unit rosters, HC and economy setup.
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RoyalGuard
Austrian Line Infantry
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Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:37 am    Post subject:

I do agree that some civs are super overpowered if you ask me, #1 Swedish(royal guards YEAH ha), #2 Swiss, #3 Prussians or Austrians, #4 America and Russia. NE civilizations are overpowered and they crush some other civilizations, my fav being the ones on top. I would say civilizations that are obsolete are the Germans, French, Iroqouis, Portugese, Spanish, Sioux, Aztec, Indian, and I would have to stop once I really think about it yeah overall the NE civilizations are quite overpowered. However I do not mind, the NE civilizations are very fun and make games like 2v6 or 3v5 plausable ha.
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Chzchan
French Conscript
French Conscript


Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:11 am    Post subject: Re: Overpowered

RoyalGuard wrote:
I do agree that some civs are super overpowered if you ask me, #1 Swedish(royal guards YEAH ha), #2 Swiss, #3 Prussians or Austrians, #4 America and Russia. NE civilizations are overpowered and they crush some other civilizations, my fav being the ones on top. I would say civilizations that are obsolete are the Germans, French, Iroqouis, Portugese, Spanish, Sioux, Aztec, Indian, and I would have to stop once I really think about it yeah overall the NE civilizations are quite overpowered. However I do not mind, the NE civilizations are very fun and make games like 2v6 or 3v5 plausable ha.


The Spanish and Portuguese do seem semi-obsolete on land-based maps (hopefully the Spanish will be buffed up by their new Marine-type unit).

The Germans aren't too underpowered, but they do deserve a bit of differentiation (which they are going to definitely receive in NE3).

The French are fairly balanced in my eyes.

The Warchief civs are also fairly balanced in my eyes as well because of the fire pit system that they share, though the Aztecs lag a bit behind the rest.

I am pretty sure that the Indians are fine; they just need their battlefield construction for Sepoys to be fixed as it does not work at the moment (the Sepoys never begin the construction of military buildings even though the building foundations are present when you initiate the action).

Are you referring to player vs computer games or player vs player games?

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

I'm aware of that and I'll probably make a big reset in the future, cause I'm sick of discovering step by step how imba NE tends to be at certain spots.

Noted.

That's an interesting view on things. I think though - and even Alexastor admitted - there's lots of feature creep responsible for that. The good side surely is that the partial imba/OPness is fun for those who use it, but the quality of content suffers and the game has become even faster. It often looks headless to me.


The game is actually rather balanced if you play against real humans from my experiences, so long as it is 2+ vs 2+. In 1 vs 1 scenarios certain civs obviously reign supreme, but I have yet to have a one sided game with my group of friends. I guess I shouldn't make assumptions that every person who plays the game will experience the same events I do, though. This is just some personal insight from myself and my comrades.

I enjoy the fast-paced and diverse nature of NE2.01 and so do many others. Though I have seen games devolve into spam-fests, the majority of them are engaging and reward the ones who actually think and form legitimate strategies rather than attempt to win by pressing one button after stacking resources.

I really hope that civs are not mitigated to the point of creating a uniformity among them if certain mechanics and aspects of them are deemed too unique or powerful and changed. The most important characteristic and core feature of NE as a whole in my eyes is the variance in gameplay. Each civ being different in its own way and having apparent strengths and weaknesses is what truly makes this mod great.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

I've both noted and appreciated the input from you and David54181 and I'd consider myself happy to have that advice more often around me. I'm always looking for helping hands. The civs in "NE 3" will feel quite different to what you know from 2.01, particularly at unit rosters, HC and economy setup.


How different are they going to be militarily and mechanics-wise?

Are the civs going to be differentiated from each other even further through new base mechanics, techs, and cards, or are they going to be standardized?

Are the civs going to by the same basic design philosophy that has been followed so far for each respective civ? For example, Swiss being an archaic infantry-based nation that is completely decentralized and always mobile, or the Russians being a nation with a weak, massive, cheap, and easily replaceable army.

How are the Danish going to fit into the mod as a unique new civ with these vastly new attributes that are going to be part of NE3? The Snaphanes intrigue me based on how badass they look in the previews you have given in this mod update. I would really like to know more about how the Danish civ will work. It almost seems like they are purposely using objects as cover when in defense mode; truly interesting.

Is there any way I can contribute? I truly do have a passion for this series of games and this mod.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Overpowered

Chzchan wrote:
The game is actually rather balanced if you play against real humans from my experiences, so long as it is 2+ vs 2+. In 1 vs 1 scenarios certain civs obviously reign supreme, but I have yet to have a one sided game with my group of friends. I guess I shouldn't make assumptions that every person who plays the game will experience the same events I do, though. This is just some personal insight from myself and my comrades.

Yes, NE 2.01 has experienced notable balance, what I'm trying to say is that lots of the new content is notably stronger in effect compared to what you know from AoE3. This creates a faster, more radical feel and balance is really hard to achieve with these huge intervalls between variables. This has all its pros and cons. It always feels great to play a kickass civ and frustrating to lose against an unbeatable opponent. I have a syntactic and semantic problem with 2.01. First, the free, unpredictable dynamics that can evolve from the new content are too radical and imbalanced, second, the choice of content doesn't please me cause it's pure feature creep and not even a close abstraction of history, but is partially an artifical, highly distorted product, that was solely made for the sake of entertainment. While supporting the entertaining character of NE 2.01 I do think this is as well possible with content and mechanics that are more credible and authentic. I also want to level all the huge statistical gaps between units, because that's a bloody complicated complex that allows exactly these unpredictable dynamics that I want to avoid.

Quote:
I enjoy the fast-paced and diverse nature of NE2.01 and so do many others. Though I have seen games devolve into spam-fests, the majority of them are engaging and reward the ones who actually think and form legitimate strategies rather than attempt to win by pressing one button after stacking resources.

I think for beginners and average AoE3 gamers this can be a lot of fun. My criticism doesn't only apply to NE, but both, NE together with AoE3. There were issues that always bothered me, but never were fixed in AoE3 or NE. I also think/hope that these are the things always made people moan about OPness and imbalance of other civs (if you look back, there was always another "OP civ" after each patch). While this is only natural, I'm convinced AoE3 has structural and mechanical deficits that support the historical claims.
Just look at mercenaries, they didnt get nerfed at all, but rather the opposite were boosted to insanity. I hate that.

Quote:
I really hope that civs are not mitigated to the point of creating a uniformity among them if certain mechanics and aspects of them are deemed too unique or powerful and changed. The most important characteristic and core feature of NE as a whole in my eyes is the variance in gameplay. Each civ being different in its own way and having apparent strengths and weaknesses is what truly makes this mod great.

While I agree to that, I will look for more uniformity first to have more stability and less unpredictable dynamics. I don't think we should have civs like in Warcraft. I want this game to be more like Age of Empires actually. A good mix of regular and unique content as opposed to super unique versus super unique. While the first may sound boring, I want to emphasize that what you know as "regular" so far is nothing like that "regular" that will come with NE 3. I first thought I could improve NE by just modding NE. That was a mistake, I have to change the underlying AoE3 to achieve that. So when I say, unit rosters, HC and economy will be different, then I'm not solely speaking about the typical NE civs, but indeed all civs.

Quote:
How different are they going to be militarily and mechanics-wise?

Simplified. Devil

Quote:
Are the civs going to be differentiated from each other even further through new base mechanics, techs, and cards, or are they going to be standardized?

I'm working on standardizations right now. However, as the civs still get unique content indeed, each civ will have their own advantages and emphasize different parts of the game. Since so much is being rethought and redesigned, some civs will feel completely new. Not only because of their unique focus, but especially because the standard setup is different to what you've seen so far.

Quote:
Are the civs going to by the same basic design philosophy that has been followed so far for each respective civ? For example, Swiss being an archaic infantry-based nation that is completely decentralized and always mobile, or the Russians being a nation with a weak, massive, cheap, and easily replaceable army.

No, not fully. Russians are a good example, while they'll still be able to mass, they'll be able to send tough elite troops to the battlefield as well. This certainly is a part where many changes will appear.

Quote:
How are the Danish going to fit into the mod as a unique new civ with these vastly new attributes that are going to be part of NE3? The Snaphanes intrigue me based on how badass they look in the previews you have given in this mod update. I would really like to know more about how the Danish civ will work. It almost seems like they are purposely using objects as cover when in defense mode; truly interesting.

No, don't overrate the screenshots here. They mostly tell a story, ideally showing both, the historical as well as the ingame role. The objects for "units taking cover" were just added to the scene give this setting an authentic atmosphere.

Danes aren't really progressed now, but that will change once I've read plenty of documents. So far they are a superb naval civ and have a solid Western unit roster. The Snaphane is - together with the Espingol - one of their aces. While the Espingol is a late-game artillery trump, the Snaphane starts his career already in Age 2. They're good ambushers with stealth and ranged armor. Generally Danes will be strong at early game and the time from Age 3 to 4 might a point where other civs are better equipped.

Quote:
Is there any way I can contribute? I truly do have a passion for this series of games and this mod.

What would you want to work at? And do you own any obvious skill for producing content maybe?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:36 pm    Post subject:

I'd like to add that, with the current trend, while there are going to be some standardizations these mainly refer to units themselves. aka most civs have access to Dragoons. However there are some quite significant differenciations that change the way civs actually play out* which will provide the disired diversity.

* from stat differences as in Aoe1+2 to more complex matters of recruitment and economy.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:08 pm    Post subject:

Yeah I meant player vs player games haha, me and a friend always took on all of our other friends 2v6, although recently they have gotten better and we had to make 3v5 games. We just used the swedish/austrians, swedish/swiss, or swedish/swedish hah. No I agree the game is quite balanced, some civs share good advantages over each other, no complaints from me. If players share the same skill level you will hardly notice the difference. I do know the NE team notices these things and I have full faith that they will create yet another great expansion.
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Chzchan
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Overpowered

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

Yes, NE 2.01 has experienced notable balance, what I'm trying to say is that lots of the new content is notably stronger in effect compared to what you know from AoE3. This creates a faster, more radical feel and balance is really hard to achieve with these huge intervalls between variables. This has all its pros and cons. It always feels great to play a kickass civ and frustrating to lose against an unbeatable opponent. I have a syntactic and semantic problem with 2.01. First, the free, unpredictable dynamics that can evolve from the new content are too radical and imbalanced, second, the choice of content doesn't please me cause it's pure feature creep and not even a close abstraction of history, but is partially an artifical, highly distorted product, that was solely made for the sake of entertainment. While supporting the entertaining character of NE 2.01 I do think this is as well possible with content and mechanics that are more credible and authentic. I also want to level all the huge statistical gaps between units, because that's a bloody complicated complex that allows exactly these unpredictable dynamics that I want to avoid.


Okay, I understand. Still, I would enjoy it if the variety of unique civ characteristics and mechanics that currently exist in NE2 show up in other ways in NE3.

I do not mean that I want to stay conservative and keep everything the same, but get rid of or mitigate certain radical or historically incorrect aspects and replace them with elements that are just as unique and interesting, but more faithful to actual history.

This is a topic I would definitely like to offer some input into.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

I think for beginners and average AoE3 gamers this can be a lot of fun. My criticism doesn't only apply to NE, but both, NE together with AoE3. There were issues that always bothered me, but never were fixed in AoE3 or NE. I also think/hope that these are the things always made people moan about OPness and imbalance of other civs (if you look back, there was always another "OP civ" after each patch). While this is only natural, I'm convinced AoE3 has structural and mechanical deficits that support the historical claims.
Just look at mercenaries, they didnt get nerfed at all, but rather the opposite were boosted to insanity. I hate that.


I agree with this. I especially agree with the mercenary hatred. Swedish Fusiliers made when playing the Swedish are like already natural born Supersoldiers that are given steroids in the form of the Torp bonus. Hahahaha.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

While I agree to that, I will look for more uniformity first to have more stability and less unpredictable dynamics. I don't think we should have civs like in Warcraft. I want this game to be more like Age of Empires actually. A good mix of regular and unique content as opposed to super unique versus super unique. While the first may sound boring, I want to emphasize that what you know as "regular" so far is nothing like that "regular" that will come with NE 3. I first thought I could improve NE by just modding NE. That was a mistake, I have to change the underlying AoE3 to achieve that. So when I say, unit rosters, HC and economy will be different, then I'm not solely speaking about the typical NE civs, but indeed all civs.


Okay, so I must not have a great idea of what exactly you are going with your uniformity. I guess I misunderstood, not like I had a choice to as I still actually have no idea what you are doing to NE3 in detail.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

Simplified. Devil


I hope that it isn't overly simplified. I'd rather go for optimization and efficiency rather than making things generally easier.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

I'm working on standardizations right now. However, as the civs still get unique content indeed, each civ will have their own advantages and emphasize different parts of the game. Since so much is being rethought and redesigned, some civs will feel completely new. Not only because of their unique focus, but especially because the standard setup is different to what you've seen so far.


Okay, this is where I would like to help in some way. Although I feel slightly uncomfortable with the "standardization" that you are preforming, I understand that it is only the first step in order to attain a base since you are re-building up from the bottom rather than just adding to the top.

Since I do not have a full idea of what the standardization is doing, I do not want to offer my input on that. I would like to provide creative ideas for mechanics when it comes to the second step of diversification. I really enjoy game mechanics in general and love coming up with ideas.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

No, not fully. Russians are a good example, while they'll still be able to mass, they'll be able to send tough elite troops to the battlefield as well. This certainly is a part where many changes will appear.


Okay, I see.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

No, don't overrate the screenshots here. They mostly tell a story, ideally showing both, the historical as well as the ingame role. The objects for "units taking cover" were just added to the scene give this setting an authentic atmosphere.

Danes aren't really progressed now, but that will change once I've read plenty of documents. So far they are a superb naval civ and have a solid Western unit roster. The Snaphane is - together with the Espingol - one of their aces. While the Espingol is a late-game artillery trump, the Snaphane starts his career already in Age 2. They're good ambushers with stealth and ranged armor. Generally Danes will be strong at early game and the time from Age 3 to 4 might a point where other civs are better equipped.


They sound neat nonetheless. I have a feeling that the screenshots aren't overrating them, hahaha.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

What would you want to work at? And do you own any obvious skill for producing content maybe?


As I said earlier, I enjoy coming up with mechanics and whatnot.

I may be able to help with modelling or some art assets, but don't count on that. Just give me an idea of the programs I need, a base, and general instructions and I may be able to accomplish something.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Re: Overpowered

Chzchan wrote:
Okay, I understand. Still, I would enjoy it if the variety of unique civ characteristics and mechanics that currently exist in NE2 show up in other ways in NE3.

I do not mean that I want to stay conservative and keep everything the same, but get rid of or mitigate certain radical or historically incorrect aspects and replace them with elements that are just as unique and interesting, but more faithful to actual history.

That's exactly what I want to do Wink I'm not 100% sure yet which variables to prefer to bring variety to civs. Unique units are only one aspect, obvious on the one hand, but not completely decisive either. I somehow fancy cost variations and varying techtrees (including units) like in AoE2. The former team for some reason preferred making many different unique techs, but I think these become too hard to balance in masses when summing up all civ's unique techs and cards in the end.

Quote:
I agree with this. I especially agree with the mercenary hatred. Swedish Fusiliers made when playing the Swedish are like already natural born Supersoldiers that are given steroids in the form of the Torp bonus. Hahahaha.

My intention is to approximate or even level Mercenaries, Natives and normal units and look for other mechanics to make them unique.


Quote:
I hope that it isn't overly simplified. I'd rather go for optimization and efficiency rather than making things generally easier.

What'd be your fears on simplification? How would it be too simple for you? I don't know what you refer to when speaking of optimization and effiency. When speaking of simplification myself in terms of mechanics, I'm referring to simple structures as opposed to highly complex structures like artificial tech complexes or thousands of buildings for few tasks. That's my general approach so far. I can't say so much about their application on military yet, because I'm still discovering it step by step and because it's not an easy thing at all to simplify and reshape such a pumped up unit system like in AoE3. I may just reveal that I'm not a fan of weird hybrids like Coyote Runners or units with plenty of boni and alike.

Quote:
Okay, this is where I would like to help in some way. Although I feel slightly uncomfortable with the "standardization" that you are preforming, I understand that it is only the first step in order to attain a base since you are re-building up from the bottom rather than just adding to the top.

Since I do not have a full idea of what the standardization is doing, I do not want to offer my input on that. I would like to provide creative ideas for mechanics when it comes to the second step of diversification. I really enjoy game mechanics in general and love coming up with ideas.

That's it. I tried top-bottom and it felt just like a half "improvement", but it just works bottom-top. I always feared resetting and reshaping would be too much work, but when I started to intensify the top-bottom approach I realized the pure amounts of analyzations and playtestings would just kill me. So, raging in the files right now feels great. It's like deliverance and chance at the same time. Mr. Green

Quote:
They sound neat nonetheless. I have a feeling that the screenshots aren't overrating them, hahaha.

Snaphaner look really peasant-like and unimpressive in the beginning and they don't have a good range and lots of HP either, but I wanted them to be nasty. And so they will be. lol

Quote:
As I said earlier, I enjoy coming up with mechanics and whatnot.

I may be able to help with modelling or some art assets, but don't count on that. Just give me an idea of the programs I need, a base, and general instructions and I may be able to accomplish something.

That's good. I can need help with mechanics indeed and you do sound like the guy who has a deeper understanding of balancing. Weirdly producing art assets is my least evil right now. I'm looking for professional advice from experienced players to minimize the amount of evil balance traps I could oversee. Are you using Skype at any chance? That'd be great, because that's my main communication tool next to forums and google docs chat. If you'd join my little network, I'd grant you some exclusive permissions on documents in order to get feedback. Does that sound any good to you? Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:23 am    Post subject:

RoyalGuard wrote:
Yeah I meant player vs player games haha, me and a friend always took on all of our other friends 2v6, although recently they have gotten better and we had to make 3v5 games. We just used the swedish/austrians, swedish/swiss, or swedish/swedish hah. No I agree the game is quite balanced, some civs share good advantages over each other, no complaints from me. If players share the same skill level you will hardly notice the difference. I do know the NE team notices these things and I have full faith that they will create yet another great expansion.


Haha, okay. Dear god, all of that Swedish.

Ca Putt wrote:
I'd like to add that, with the current trend, while there are going to be some standardizations these mainly refer to units themselves. aka most civs have access to Dragoons. However there are some quite significant differenciations that change the way civs actually play out* which will provide the disired diversity.

* from stat differences as in Aoe1+2 to more complex matters of recruitment and economy.


Okay, so certain civs will only get access to certain upgrades, right?

For instance, in AOE2 certain civs would get access to the Halberdier upgrade to their Spearman unit, but some would not.

So certain civs would only get Veteran upgrades and not Imperial or something like that, right?

Is this the new general design philosophy? Hahaha, I'm probably way off the mark.
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Chzchan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:04 am    Post subject: Re: Overpowered

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

That's exactly what I want to do Wink I'm not 100% sure yet which variables to prefer to bring variety to civs. Unique units are only one aspect, obvious on the one hand, but not completely decisive either. I somehow fancy cost variations and varying techtrees (including units) like in AoE2. The former team for some reason preferred making many different unique techs, but I think these become too hard to balance in masses when summing up all civ's unique techs and cards in the end.


I fancy a nice balance of both rather than just going one way or the other. Compromise between a variety of unique units and techs and varying costs and available base techs across the civs would be the best choice of action.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

My intention is to approximate or even level Mercenaries, Natives and normal units and look for other mechanics to make them unique.


Yeah, that sounds good.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

What'd be your fears on simplification? How would it be too simple for you? I don't know what you refer to when speaking of optimization and effiency. When speaking of simplification myself in terms of mechanics, I'm referring to simple structures as opposed to highly complex structures like artificial tech complexes or thousands of buildings for few tasks. That's my general approach so far. I can't say so much about their application on military yet, because I'm still discovering it step by step and because it's not an easy thing at all to simplify and reshape such a pumped up unit system like in AoE3. I may just reveal that I'm not a fan of weird hybrids like Coyote Runners or units with plenty of boni and alike.


There is a certain skill floor that is created by the current set up of economy.

If every civ had as little buildings as the Swiss, for example, I don't think there would need to be much involvement into attaining a booming economy. What balances the simplification of the Swiss economy is the fact that they cannot compete with other civs during late game because they are limited by their population cap, Follower cap, and lack of a second factory.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

That's it. I tried top-bottom and it felt just like a half "improvement", but it just works bottom-top. I always feared resetting and reshaping would be too much work, but when I started to intensify the top-bottom approach I realized the pure amounts of analyzations and playtestings would just kill me. So, raging in the files right now feels great. It's like deliverance and chance at the same time. Mr. Green


Sounds fun, hahaha. I can tell that this version will take the longest to make based on this new direction NE is going.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

Snaphaner look really peasant-like and unimpressive in the beginning and they don't have a good range and lots of HP either, but I wanted them to be nasty. And so they will be. lol


I don't know why, but the black hat and uniform + team-colored neck shoulder area combo just looks really cool to me. Their purpose and background also adds to their badassery.

Well, their stats will definitely reflect their guerrilla tactics, hahaha. I'm guessing that they will be like a short-ranged Grenzer without bacterial spawn capabilities. I'm also guessing that they will have an already fast base movement speed with further techs/upgrades to increase that speed or generally support their hit-and-run usage.

I wonder if non-card upgrades from barracks and other military buildings could be differentiated for each unit and increase other stats rather than just build upon health and damage. Back in AOE2, upgrading units directly at the barracks or stable would increase their range or armor depending on the unit rather than just damage and health like upgrades do in AOE3. There are many different stats to work with now, so this can be expanded on.

Ah, nevermind. That seems complicated.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

That's good. I can need help with mechanics indeed and you do sound like the guy who has a deeper understanding of balancing. Weirdly producing art assets is my least evil right now. I'm looking for professional advice from experienced players to minimize the amount of evil balance traps I could oversee. Are you using Skype at any chance? That'd be great, because that's my main communication tool next to forums and google docs chat. If you'd join my little network, I'd grant you some exclusive permissions on documents in order to get feedback. Does that sound any good to you? Wink


Okay, that sounds like a plan. I'm actually pretty excited right now.

Since I live in California, I'm sure time difference will be a problem when contacting you as it is currently around 5 AM in Germany right now and around 8 PM here, so we should probably figure something out. I have a Skype, but I implore you to use another program called Raidcall if you can. It consumes a significantly smaller amount of resources on your computer and is a lot less commercialized and bloated in comparison to Skype. It is what my comrades and I use to communicate with each other everyday.

I look forward to speaking with you.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject:

Chzchan wrote:
Okay, so certain civs will only get access to certain upgrades, right?

For instance, in AOE2 certain civs would get access to the Halberdier upgrade to their Spearman unit, but some would not.

So certain civs would only get Veteran upgrades and not Imperial or something like that, right?

Is this the new general design philosophy? Hahaha, I'm probably way off the mark.

Well, I envisioned something like that. However, particulalry cutting off upgrade lines will probably not become a dominant tool for me. AoE2 was all generic, in AoE3 and in NE there are way more unique units though and these usually replace generic units and don't just add to the generic unit roster as in AoE2. So, this will be more like "civ x is missing the arquebusier and the pikeman, but has UU x instead, while civ y is 'just' missing musketeers generally for creating an intended downside in the civ."
There'll certainly be cases though where Imperial/Guard upgrades are just missing. I'm not really sure yet how to deal with Royal Guards. So far we used them to merge another historically famous unit into a standard one instead of creating another UU. Tbh, I always wondered why the Guard and not the Imperial upgrade was turned into an outstanding upgrade tech, it's not a linear approach obviously.

Chzchan wrote:
Okay, so certain civs will only get access to certain upgrades, right?

For instance, in AOE2 certain civs would get access to the Halberdier upgrade to their Spearman unit, but some would not.

So certain civs would only get Veteran upgrades and not Imperial or something like that, right?

Is this the new general design philosophy? Hahaha, I'm probably way off the mark.

Well, I envisioned something like that. However, particulalry cutting off upgrade lines will probably not become a dominant tool for me. In AoE2 was all generic, in AoE3 and in NE there are way more unique units though and these usually replace generic units and don't just add to the generic unit roster as in AoE2. So, this will be more like "civ x is missing the arquebusier and the pikeman, but has UU x instead, while civ y is 'just' missing musketeers generally for creating an intended downside in the civ."
There'll certainly be cases though where Imperial/Guard upgrades are just missing. I'm not really sure yet how to deal with Royal Guards. So far we used them to merge another historically famous unit into a standard one instead of creating another UU. Tbh, I always wondered why the Guard and not the Imperial upgrade was turned into an outstanding upgrade tech, it's not a linear approach obviously.

Chzchan wrote:
I fancy a nice balance of both rather than just going one way or the other. Compromise between a variety of unique units and techs and varying costs and available base techs across the civs would be the best choice of action.

Of course, I was just talking about a tendency and not an absolutely directional decision Wink

Quote:
There is a certain skill floor that is created by the current set up of economy.

If every civ had as little buildings as the Swiss, for example, I don't think there would need to be much involvement into attaining a booming economy. What balances the simplification of the Swiss economy is the fact that they cannot compete with other civs during late game because they are limited by their population cap, Follower cap, and lack of a second factory.

Several buildings simply can be merged, because they offer so few and aren't really unique. I don't think that'd lessen the necessary effort to build a great eco. You still have buildings costs, villager management, hunting, mining, wood cutting. So, while I do want to simplify agriculture, I'm not going to touch any of the other eco rules. And the example that you bring up with Swiss is a unique case, but I do plan to make it standard for all civs, so that's not creating unfair advantages and alike. Wink

Quote:
Sounds fun, hahaha. I can tell that this version will take the longest to make based on this new direction NE is going.

The first version, maybe. Because working out and testing the new mechanics takes time. However, after this was done, this will be more like a regular production. And that is something that wouldn't have happened in the top-bottom approach, that'd have required persistent analyses.

Quote:
I don't know why, but the black hat and uniform + team-colored neck shoulder area combo just looks really cool to me. Their purpose and background also adds to their badassery.

Really? Even though kinda realistic, I feel they're missing some color yet, but that's a polishing thing.

Quote:
Well, their stats will definitely reflect their guerrilla tactics, hahaha. I'm guessing that they will be like a short-ranged Grenzer without bacterial spawn capabilities. I'm also guessing that they will have an already fast base movement speed with further techs/upgrades to increase that speed or generally support their hit-and-run usage.

I'll limit those "bacterial spawns" and I'm not a fan of the Grenzer tbh. Snaphaner are quick (even in Stealth), their HP are kinda low, average range, good ranged armour and does really well against HI. So, due to the mediocre range the h&r ability is limited, but they'll make nice ambushes for sure. Mr. Green

Quote:
I wonder if non-card upgrades from barracks and other military buildings could be differentiated for each unit and increase other stats rather than just build upon health and damage. Back in AOE2, upgrading units directly at the barracks or stable would increase their range or armor depending on the unit rather than just damage and health like upgrades do in AOE3. There are many different stats to work with now, so this can be expanded on.

Ah, nevermind. That seems complicated.

It is and would confuse players like hell. It even took me years to realize AoE2 unit upgrades don't all work the same way.

Quote:
Since I live in California, I'm sure time difference will be a problem when contacting you as it is currently around 5 AM in Germany right now and around 8 PM here, so we should probably figure something out. I have a Skype, but I implore you to use another program called Raidcall if you can. It consumes a significantly smaller amount of resources on your computer and is a lot less commercialized and bloated in comparison to Skype. It is what my comrades and I use to communicate with each other everyday.

The time gap so far was never a serious problem, there are offline messages and I'm some sort of owl as well. ^^ Raidcall only supports their own protocol it seems, that's bad. I respect the resources argument for the sake of it, but I'd appreciate it if the amount of software I need to run parallely while modding and chatting won't extent as long as it's not crucial. So, I please you to use Skype since you already seem to have it for a reason. I don't know your machine, but I think caring for resources of an IM seems like a perfectionist approach unlike something essential to make the PC run at all Wink

What are your online times?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject:

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

Well, I envisioned something like that. However, particulalry cutting off upgrade lines will probably not become a dominant tool for me. AoE2 was all generic, in AoE3 and in NE there are way more unique units though and these usually replace generic units and don't just add to the generic unit roster as in AoE2. So, this will be more like "civ x is missing the arquebusier and the pikeman, but has UU x instead, while civ y is 'just' missing musketeers generally for creating an intended downside in the civ."
There'll certainly be cases though where Imperial/Guard upgrades are just missing. I'm not really sure yet how to deal with Royal Guards. So far we used them to merge another historically famous unit into a standard one instead of creating another UU. Tbh, I always wondered why the Guard and not the Imperial upgrade was turned into an outstanding upgrade tech, it's not a linear approach obviously.


Okay, I see.

Isn't that sort of how it is at the moment, but to a greater extent and with more UUs per civ?

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

Several buildings simply can be merged, because they offer so few and aren't really unique. I don't think that'd lessen the necessary effort to build a great eco. You still have buildings costs, villager management, hunting, mining, wood cutting. So, while I do want to simplify agriculture, I'm not going to touch any of the other eco rules. And the example that you bring up with Swiss is a unique case, but I do plan to make it standard for all civs, so that's not creating unfair advantages and alike. Wink


Okay, I understand.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

The first version, maybe. Because working out and testing the new mechanics takes time. However, after this was done, this will be more like a regular production. And that is something that wouldn't have happened in the top-bottom approach, that'd have required persistent analyses.


So will there be a series of NE3s? 3.01, 3.02, 3.03 etc?

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

Really? Even though kinda realistic, I feel they're missing some color yet, but that's a polishing thing.

I'll limit those "bacterial spawns" and I'm not a fan of the Grenzer tbh. Snaphaner are quick (even in Stealth), their HP are kinda low, average range, good ranged armour and does really well against HI. So, due to the mediocre range the h&r ability is limited, but they'll make nice ambushes for sure. Mr. Green


Those do sound a lot like Grenzers as they have essentially the exact same qualities minus the range and bacterial spawn. I guess the speed while stealthy may make them slightly different, but not really.

Grenzers have an incredibly low base HP of 90, but a strong ranged resistance of 40%. They also have incredibly low base damage, but large multipliers against general Infantry and Artillery (the negative multiplier against Heavy Infantry that they start out with can be removed via cards). They have 2 more range than the average Musketeer at 16 and a card that increases this range to that of the average Skirmisher at 20. They can initiate stealth and obtain an increase in speed via cards as well. Then there's the bacterial spawn ability.

So they'll pretty much be anti-villager Grenzers that look more badass, unless you intend to make them even more unique.

Since the Snaphanes were pretty much a mix of peasants and militiamen united together as vigilantes against the Swedish that happened to be supported by the Danish king, I think it would be neat to implement some unique attribute other than bacterial spawn that symbolizes on the fly recruitment or some other characteristic of the Snaphane movement.

I remember one of the native units, the Hashashins had this ability to have a chance to magically respawn after being killed. This could be implemented, but interpreted in a different way. It would be another loyal Snaphane coming to avenge of one of his fallen brethren. Rather than appearing after death, alternatively, there could be a trigger associated with critically low health. This would indicate essentially the same interpretation, but the new Snaphane would appear to aid one that is near death. Again, this would be an ability based on chance, so the chance of the spawn occurring could be adjusted when balancing things out.

There were also thieves and other criminals that happened to be part of the movement under the guise of the Snaphane, so that could be used as another base for creative attributes.


There's also the Espingol that I would like to discuss. Is it going to be a recycle of the Portuguese Organ Gun? If it is, it will not be historically accurate. The very very first Espingol had a single barrel that was filled with gunpowder and bullets. It was reloaded by replacing the barrel with another filled one.

The "rapid fire" Espingol that was first created in response to the failure to copy the English Congreve rocket for Danish use. Though they were first created in 1816, they were not put into military use until decades later. The Organ Espingols didn't exist until 1850.

The Divisionsespingol was the first version of the Espingol which consisted of a single barrel that contained between 16 and 32 bullets. This was followed by another version called the Kolonneespingol which had three barrels, but no more than 16 bullets in each barrel. This second version then evolved into the Organ version that was used later on.

Divisionsespingol


Kolonneespingol


The Espingols were notorious for being cumbersome to use while on the offense, but very good for defense, especially when mounted on fortifications. This was because they could maintain fire, but could not be stopped until the entire barrel was empty and it had to be reloaded. Reloading was also a pain.

Their "rapid fire" of a mere bullet every two seconds seems like nothing when compared to modern firearms, but it was truly an advancement back then when all gunpowder weapons had to be reloaded after each shot.

I'm hoping that the Espingol unit stays somewhat true to the looks, function and mechanics of the first verion of the weapon. Single-barreled, extended fire, long downtime, etc.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

It is and would confuse players like hell. It even took me years to realize AoE2 unit upgrades don't all work the same way.


Haha, I thought so.

Tilanus Commodor wrote:

The time gap so far was never a serious problem, there are offline messages and I'm some sort of owl as well. ^^ Raidcall only supports their own protocol it seems, that's bad. I respect the resources argument for the sake of it, but I'd appreciate it if the amount of software I need to run parallely while modding and chatting won't extent as long as it's not crucial. So, I please you to use Skype since you already seem to have it for a reason. I don't know your machine, but I think caring for resources of an IM seems like a perfectionist approach unlike something essential to make the PC run at all Wink

What are your online times?


Okay, well my Skype name is chzchan, of course. I am pretty much on all day over the weekends, but only in the afternoon during the week.

Since 5 PM - 12 AM here is 2 AM - 9 AM in Germany, I doubt I'll be able to converse with you via Skype during the week unless you happen to be awake in the morning.

Weekends should be fine because I will usually be home all day unless I have to attend a family gathering or a party with my friends. Lets see, 11 AM here is around 8 PM in Germany, so contact would be fine around noon into the afternoon tomorrow.

Then again, you can always message me using the website's private message system or Skype messages.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject:

Chzchan wrote:
Okay, I see.

Isn't that sort of how it is at the moment, but to a greater extent and with more UUs per civ?

Yes, it already is like that, but I want it to be more obvious and conscious to players and not have the "by the way" character of NE 2.01. So this is surely a cosmetic type of thing to explain how the civs are built up and less a change of design.

Do you actually see any reason why the second out of three upgrades was given a Royal status as opposed to the third and last upgrade?

Quote:
So will there be a series of NE3s? 3.01, 3.02, 3.03 etc?

Certainly, yes. I will not be able to do all civs at once. I'm yet uncertain if I'd disable the unfinished civs or keep them as they are. Most probably I'll apply the fundamental changes to all playable civs and keep them as they are. Apart from that, releasing civs step by step is a good ol' NE tradition!

Quote:
Those do sound a lot like Grenzers as they have essentially the exact same qualities minus the range and bacterial spawn. I guess the speed while stealthy may make them slightly different, but not really.

Grenzers have an incredibly low base HP of 90, but a strong ranged resistance of 40%. They also have incredibly low base damage, but large multipliers against general Infantry and Artillery (the negative multiplier against Heavy Infantry that they start out with can be removed via cards). They have 2 more range than the average Musketeer at 16 and a card that increases this range to that of the average Skirmisher at 20. They can initiate stealth and obtain an increase in speed via cards as well. Then there's the bacterial spawn ability.

So they'll pretty much be anti-villager Grenzers that look more badass, unless you intend to make them even more unique.

Yes, right now they do sound exactly like Grenzers yet. Their attack values differ more clearly though. Snaphaner do not counter artillery, they solely focus on HI (so LI is excepted). Apart from that they got different base damage and range. That already being some differences, I'll redesign the Grenzer anyway, because I dislike the current realization in the game. So they'll lose lots of their current traits in exchange for others.

Quote:
Since the Snaphanes were pretty much a mix of peasants and militiamen united together as vigilantes against the Swedish that happened to be supported by the Danish king, I think it would be neat to implement some unique attribute other than bacterial spawn that symbolizes on the fly recruitment or some other characteristic of the Snaphane movement.

Next to militia units I could imagine making them trainable at Houses. While having content in Houses is not a new idea at all, I'd have to check yet if having Snaphaner in Houses in particular is a good thing. Actually I do not fancy unique ways recruitment for unique units, because sometimes it looks like feature creep and too much of trying to be like a simulation.

Quote:
I remember one of the native units, the Hashashins had this ability to have a chance to magically respawn after being killed. This could be implemented, but interpreted in a different way. It would be another loyal Snaphane coming to avenge of one of his fallen brethren. Rather than appearing after death, alternatively, there could be a trigger associated with critically low health. This would indicate essentially the same interpretation, but the new Snaphane would appear to aid one that is near death. Again, this would be an ability based on chance, so the chance of the spawn occurring could be adjusted when balancing things out.

I see you have already fallen in love with the idea to make the Snaphane as unique as possible, but I fear I need to destroy your dreams at this point, because these ideas are exactly of the same sort that made Grenzers so bloated and inflated. Wink

Quote:
There were also thieves and other criminals that happened to be part of the movement under the guise of the Snaphane, so that could be used as another base for creative attributes.

So far I consciously avoided an anti-villager bonus, but I gave them a fairly well building attack. While there were indeed thieves and criminals among them and robbery wasn't unusual either, another forumer once correctly pointed out that they were not unnecessarily cruel unlike Ottoman Bashi-bazouks who are known for one or the other occasional massacre.

Point taken on the Espingols, I'll certainly just go for Danish rockets then. Smile

Quote:
Since 5 PM - 12 AM here is 2 AM - 9 AM in Germany, I doubt I'll be able to converse with you via Skype during the week unless you happen to be awake in the morning.

What's at 1pm and 2pm? Nevermind, after this week I'll have more free time. During the uni days I'm online from 10am til 2am, sometimes even a lil longer. When not having uni days I usually go online between 1pm and 4pm and don't have a real limit.

I added you on Skype!
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