Modding Report #23
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:42 pm    Post subject:

Ha, funny. Reminds me of a Doppelsöldner sketch I was once doing 2 years ago:


These had (slightly oversized) burgonet helmets, but were also based on the Geus. It might indeed work with something like this. Are you also saying that you prefer this idle animation of the current one of the Doppel?
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Ivenend
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:19 am    Post subject:

Tilanus Commodor wrote:
Ha, funny. Reminds me of a Doppelsöldner sketch I was once doing 2 years ago:


These had (slightly oversized) burgonet helmets, but were also based on the Geus. It might indeed work with something like this. Are you also saying that you prefer this idle animation of the current one of the Doppel?


This model is great! Acutually there are also many two-hander soilders with burgonet helmets in about late 16th and early 17th century, see the picture below:
Spoiler:



If you have released this model, I would not request for the Tall-hat one. This model is especially suitable for the 'vetern' upgrade of the Doppelsoldner, and you can use your 'historically fictive Doppelsöldner design' fot the 'guard' and 'imperial' upgrade of this unit Wink

I don't have any favorite idle anims, I just haven't change the anim of the Geuzen yet.


P.S which idle anim did you give to the model in that screenshot?
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Ande59
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:47 am    Post subject:

Quick Questions about Persia, I'm curious;

When you say Deficit: Factories, I assume you mean lack of them?
and,
To age, is it going to be via wonders, or is it a euro-basis civ with an Indian/Persian 'coating' for buildings?
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:13 pm    Post subject:

@Ivenend: Yeah, I knew that (which is why I gave them burgonets, right?). Can you tell me where you got this and the former image from? Btw, if you're interested in research unit drafts for us and help designing them, we'd be glad to welcome you. Smile

The idle animation is from Samurai, btw. Wink

@Ande59: The Persian will age up with politicians like Euro civs instead of aging-up by wonders. Apart from that, there won't be much similarities to Europeans. They also get an unique Persian look (just like Americans got one). As for factories, yes, they will lack them since they will get something else. Smile
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:03 pm    Post subject:

As you did with the Persians' age-up could you also shed some light on the new natives you mentioned? I imagined hugenottes could be somehow involved with the church or church techs as they were a religious minority although your idea seems to be different as Catalans don't seem to fit that role.

Another thing: I don't see any need to find a replacement for oprichniks. They are a pointless op-unit. Instead I could imagine the ranged cavalry gaining some advantage against villagers (ottomans already have the Irregulars-shipment) as they seem to fit the historical role of raiders. That could even fit for dragoons as they were often used as police forces. Cossacks's siege attack could be increased in return.

Also what about Wallachians? I can remember some heavy discussing about them and danubian principalities a few years ago. Are they still planned or even finished? Because otherwise you could give them some oprichnik-like unit. ETW has Wallachian Boyars. The concept of Oprichniks would fit to them (and they even bear some optical similarities imho) I think and having a buildlimit on them would make them less unbalanced. Austria, Ottomans, Poland and Russia could have them available via homecity.

Otherwise I really like the new conception for natives with unqiue techs and even some techtrees or imperial age possibilities. Maybe you could also improve classic natives like tuareg and egyptians. Their boni are a bit bland. Also is there a reason why do Bavarians lack Settlerwagons, while the other German subcivs have them?
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:49 pm    Post subject:

Silmariel wrote:
As you did with the Persians' age-up could you also shed some light on the new natives you mentioned? I imagined hugenottes could be somehow involved with the church or church techs as they were a religious minority although your idea seems to be different as Catalans don't seem to fit that role.

Well, the guessing game is not over yet. Mr. Green But you already understood, we won't cover sub-people. Wink

Quote:
Another thing: I don't see any need to find a replacement for oprichniks. They are a pointless op-unit. Instead I could imagine the ranged cavalry gaining some advantage against villagers (ottomans already have the Irregulars-shipment) as they seem to fit the historical role of raiders. That could even fit for dragoons as they were often used as police forces. Cossacks's siege attack could be increased in return.

I've indeed sketched a modified concept for Russians without Oprichniki, where I was moving its traits to Strelets and Cav Archers (melee only though). I'll leave the Cossacks untouched though.

Quote:
Also what about Wallachians? I can remember some heavy discussing about them and danubian principalities a few years ago. Are they still planned or even finished? Because otherwise you could give them some oprichnik-like unit. ETW has Wallachian Boyars. The concept of Oprichniks would fit to them (and they even bear some optical similarities imho) I think and having a buildlimit on them would make them less unbalanced. Austria, Ottomans, Poland and Russia could have them available via homecity.

What heavy discussing? Wallachians are quite interesting people from a historical perspective, even though it is a bit complex when you try to draw front lines and understand the relations between the numerous ethnicities on the Balkans.

They are not finished, but still planned and there already is an internal version. As far as my research goes Boyars were kinda equal to Dukes, thus I think doubts about them fighting in field themselves are justified. While the TW games have a level of historical accuracy and depht unmatched by any AoE game, there are still some misconceptions or simplifications in them. One rank below the Wallachian Boyars that has fought in field as cavalryman for sure are called Mazili. They're a valid candidate for us. We have researched a list of units already, but still need to decide for and against units.
I outright agree with you that an anti-villager bonus would be sweet for a unit like this and also Cav Archers (main reference to Tatars) and Dragoons (i.e. referring to the French Dragonades). I had this plan long ago already, but wasn't sure if it should really be realized in NE2. Because, even though a bonus like this seems impressively justified by history, balance considerations could still lead to the conclusion that it might not be a good idea gamewise. And one aspect that let's me think like that is that Dragoons are already very powerful units. On the other hand there definitely is some villager protectionism in AoE3 forced by ES. So, like I said already about the Russian cavalry archers above, something like limiting this bonus to melee only and possibly requiring people to activate this bonus through a tech/HC card looks like a realistic scenario to me.

Quote:
Otherwise I really like the new conception for natives with unqiue techs and even some techtrees or imperial age possibilities. Maybe you could also improve classic natives like tuareg and egyptians. Their boni are a bit bland. Also is there a reason why do Bavarians lack Settlerwagons, while the other German subcivs have them?

If you got any suggestions at your hands, I'd be eager to get to know them. Smile
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:11 am    Post subject:

A quick wikipedia-research revealed to me that Mazili seem to be nothing different than "fallen boyars". I cannot fully agree seeing them as dukes as well. Certainly some of them were highranked advisors and officals, second only to the hospodar(?). But as far as my understand is concerned most landowners had that title. I imagined them as greedy nobles who do not mind pushing around their peasants and serfs (gypsy slaves), collecting inappropriate amounts of taxes and therefore being hated by their people. In times of war they would serve in the cavalry, as appropriate for noblemen. While leaving the dirty work to others they do what they can do best, pillaging and ransacking and grabbing everything they can get to increase their own hoard. And that was something I saw fit to an oprichnik-like unit. Quoting ETW was rather to show how such a unit could look like, instead of a claim for historical accuracy. I'm no historian and I do not at all want to argue but I think it might be reasonable to exchange a fitting term for the catchier one. Someone might have heard of boyars, as they are in AoE II as well, while mazili might never have touched someone's ears who isn't interested in the history of this very region.
Techs involved with those boyars could be:
Gypsy Slaves: While boyars treat their subjects bad, they treat their gypsy slaves even worse. Increased damage against villagers (making them even more effective as a raiding unit. x2->x3).
Phanariote Rule: By appointing more boyars, the phanariote receive some extra revenues. Decreasing unit cost/giving each of them a tiny gold trickle (~0,02)/increased build limit/increased unit cost

I do not know anymore what the issue of this heavy discussing was, but it was some topic here that eventually revealed the existance of the danubian principalities to me. Discussing ethnicities on the balkans is always a difficult task, as people easily get offended I think. Whatever.

I fully agree, dragoons are already strong enough. Making the Ottomans' Irregulars shipment available for all cav-archer nations could also do the trick.

Maybe the Russian roster could also be filled with that archaic (no upgrades beyond veteran) cavalry unit you presented yourself in MR#20, who could be given the oprichnik's high siege damage. To me it seems as if Russia would need some serious overhaul as some standard strategies seem not plausible at all. For instance: Sewastopol the card which allows for quick fortification building is in fact based on the Crimean war which took place after NE's timeline. One funny thing I imagine could be giving their buildings the possibility to explode on command damaging nearby units. The animations should be there (you have to blow up some dynamite stashs in the campaign) and it seems codeable to me. As a reminiscence of the burning ruin Napoleon faced when he expected the treasures of Moscow. You also do not seem to be keen to carry on with AoE's depiction of the Russians as some lifes-do-not-count-defacto-red-army-faction.

I actually had no specific techs in mind when writing about the classic natives (but as you could see above, I came up with quite a lot of other suggestions Wink ). But at least Egyptians deserve a clearer role. Bearing the heritage of one of the greatest empires as well as being part of Napoleon's campaign could be the keys. The only thing I could make up quickly was the Stone of Rosette. If I remember correctly it was found during Napoleon's campaign. I'd relate it to research time in general or cheaper technologies at university. Or some space landing vehicle. Confused

Also the new Cairo Janissairs could receive some place within the Egyptian Natives.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:07 pm    Post subject:

Silmariel wrote:
A quick wikipedia-research revealed to me that Mazili seem to be nothing different than "fallen boyars". I cannot fully agree seeing them as dukes as well. Certainly some of them were highranked advisors and officals, second only to the hospodar(?). But as far as my understand is concerned most landowners had that title. I imagined them as greedy nobles who do not mind pushing around their peasants and serfs (gypsy slaves), collecting inappropriate amounts of taxes and therefore being hated by their people. In times of war they would serve in the cavalry, as appropriate for noblemen. While leaving the dirty work to others they do what they can do best, pillaging and ransacking and grabbing everything they can get to increase their own hoard. And that was something I saw fit to an oprichnik-like unit. Quoting ETW was rather to show how such a unit could look like, instead of a claim for historical accuracy. I'm no historian and I do not at all want to argue but I think it might be reasonable to exchange a fitting term for the catchier one. Someone might have heard of boyars, as they are in AoE II as well, while mazili might never have touched someone's ears who isn't interested in the history of this very region.

Eh, wow, Silmariel, what has gotten into you. Mr. Green I didn't say Mazili are like dukes, I said boyars are like dukes. And dukes do in fact not fight themselves on the battlefield. However, lower ranked boyars - Mazili - did serve in the military not only in commanding positions. Next time, better read closely! Saves you a lot of lines to type. Wink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar#The_boyar_condition


Quote:
Techs involved with those boyars could be:
Gypsy Slaves: While boyars treat their subjects bad, they treat their gypsy slaves even worse. Increased damage against villagers (making them even more effective as a raiding unit. x2->x3).
Phanariote Rule: By appointing more boyars, the phanariote receive some extra revenues. Decreasing unit cost/giving each of them a tiny gold trickle (~0,02)/increased build limit/increased unit cost

Increased damage is something I'd give Mazili by default. Phanariote Rule is a tech we planned for Greek natives already. Wink

Quote:
I do not know anymore what the issue of this heavy discussing was, but it was some topic here that eventually revealed the existance of the danubian principalities to me. Discussing ethnicities on the balkans is always a difficult task, as people easily get offended I think. Whatever.

Ah, this. Yes, I remember and over the years I've learnt more about the history of the Balkans and changed my view on the historical relevance the Balkan ethnicities had for Europe.

Quote:
I fully agree, dragoons are already strong enough. Making the Ottomans' Irregulars shipment available for all cav-archer nations could also do the trick.

Well, as I said, if it's limited to melee and only available through a tech or card, it could work for Dragoons too.

Quote:
Maybe the Russian roster could also be filled with that archaic (no upgrades beyond veteran) cavalry unit you presented yourself in MR#20, who could be given the oprichnik's high siege damage. To me it seems as if Russia would need some serious overhaul as some standard strategies seem not plausible at all. For instance: Sewastopol the card which allows for quick fortification building is in fact based on the Crimean war which took place after NE's timeline. One funny thing I imagine could be giving their buildings the possibility to explode on command damaging nearby units. The animations should be there (you have to blow up some dynamite stashs in the campaign) and it seems codeable to me. As a reminiscence of the burning ruin Napoleon faced when he expected the treasures of Moscow. You also do not seem to be keen to carry on with AoE's depiction of the Russians as some lifes-do-not-count-defacto-red-army-faction.

We intend to apply the design of the cavalry unit that you mentioned on both, the generic cavalry archer design and the Russian RG. Wink Giving LC a better siege damage could be a critical thing balance-wise. While I have my doubts on exploding Russian buildings, I may point out that there already is something such as a burned land/scorched earth card or some tech for Russians that follows the historical example that you gave. Your observation about my will to make a proper Russian civ is definitely true. Smile

As for the Sevastopol card, there are possibly a lot more cards that are not covered by the official timeline and it'll probably impossible to eliminate all these techs and cards from the whole game in NE2.

Quote:
I actually had no specific techs in mind when writing about the classic natives (but as you could see above, I came up with quite a lot of other suggestions Wink ). But at least Egyptians deserve a clearer role. Bearing the heritage of one of the greatest empires as well as being part of Napoleon's campaign could be the keys. The only thing I could make up quickly was the Stone of Rosette. If I remember correctly it was found during Napoleon's campaign. I'd relate it to research time in general or cheaper technologies at university. Or some space landing vehicle. Confused

Also the new Cairo Janissairs could receive some place within the Egyptian Natives.

Agree on the last thing, exactly my idea as well. ^^ They already ship Mamlukes though, so I think extra Cairo Janissaries would be too much. It's also not necessary, because Cairo Janissaries are planned as standard mercenaries for all Middle Eastern and North African maps.

The Rosetta stone is featured as treasure already though. Wink
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:22 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Next time, better read closely! Saves you a lot of lines to type.


Fortuanetely laziness punishes itself. Smile


Quote:
Ah, this. Yes, I remember and over the years I've learnt more about the history of the Balkans and changed my view on the historical relevance the Balkan ethnicities had for Europe.


And that is? Very little...? Razz

Quote:
Agree on the last thing, exactly my idea as well. ^^ They already ship Mamlukes though, so I think extra Cairo Janissaries would be too much. It's also not necessary, because Cairo Janissaries are planned as standard mercenaries for all Middle Eastern and North African maps.


I'm not sure. Are they mercenaries or a bandit-replacement? If they are the later and you keep the high population for them, maybe a tech could decrease their population or something. Maybe also the Barbary Corsairs' Arabian Upheavel could be shifted to the Egyptians or Tuareg for that matter. Either way, costs should be increased or the tech shifted to 3rd age. Having 30 units (no housing space required) for 200 of each resource is not very fair.

One last thing about the map specific stuff: could we have asianized tradepost-sockets for the Western Asia/Northern Africa maps?

#almost forgot: Tuareg still have a wrong tech-icon. It depicts a goat but ships sheep.
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sennacherib
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:23 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
It's a version with which we intend to finally get rid of the remaining historical inaccuracies and anachronisms in our mod and raise the realism and credibility by replacing them with more appropriate conceptual and more beautiful audio-visual interpretations.


are you going to remove some archaic units like the pikemen or the halberdiers?
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:39 pm    Post subject:

In NE2 we are already removing horribly archaic units (like Teutonic Knight), trying to reduce the frequency of them (i.e. Crossbowman) and possibly turn those units into more contemporary versions by concept or visuals (i.e. Longbowman). An example for the latter would be the Halberdier, which you mentioned, that we will turn into some sort of sub-officer.

Pikemen are not that archaic actually and since NE2 and NE3 start around 1555, their place in the mod is still fine.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:04 pm    Post subject:

Actually Halberdiers are not that archaic either. At least not in Dutch history. They were part of the armies during the 80 Years War and that lasted until the Peace of Munster in 1648. So imo they would be the same as Pikeman, althouhj I agree their unit slot is a bit wasted if there are already Pikeman...

Also, Longbowman are more archaic then Crossbowman, so I don't really see where the change is coming from. In fact, Crossbowman replaced Longbowman rapidly. Historical records even place crossbows at the Battle of Hastings in 1066. It is true that the more powerful nations, like the UK and France, had 'changed' Crossbowman for Musketeers, but certainly not all playable civs. I'd love to hear your explanation on why chancge Crossbowman to Longbowman? Smile

Btw, I really love the mod! The original game is my favorite of all time as I really like this era of history and warfare. Thanks for creating so many epic new features, civs, units and everything else! Keep up the great work!
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Ande59
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:16 am    Post subject:

I think Longbowmen are staying due to the unique unit for the British civ.
Quick question: Has the NE team thought of somehow making Pikemen upgrade into Halberdiers?
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:35 am    Post subject:

@gandalfDK: You got that a lil wrong what I said. I didn't say that we would replace Xbows with Lbows. I said that Xbows are an example for units whose availability we are trying to reduce to a minimum and that Lbows are an example for units which we try to modernize by giving them a less medieval, but more contemporary visual concept.

Halberdiers are more archaic in the sense of having been used less likely as a weapon of large battle formations throughout - or even after - the 17th century. The reason for that is a bit similar with crossbows and longbows. Halberds, even though a powerful polearm weapon, required more training and were more costy. An interesting note on pikes is that states continued to used them also after 1700 in the American colonies, Russia and Portugal, especially for Militia.

Even though a Halberdier is basically a heavier, more expensive pikeman, there's some justification for them as they deal more base damage and cost coins instead of wood, which makes them easier to train in larger numbers in late game, when people are short on wood.

Thanks for the compliment Smile Btw, what are your favorite features? Mr. Green Just being curious.

@Ande59: There are various "Unit modernization" techs/cards in the game, I'm sure there's one that does exactly that. I don't know by heart though. Those modernizations in which a cheaper unit is upgraded into a better one are always critical in terms of balance though, because they tempt people to exploit them by pre-massproducing the weaker unit before the modernization.
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sennacherib
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:05 am    Post subject:

Quote:
trying to reduce the frequency of them
Code:


ok cool, personally i don't like to fight against crossbowmen, longbowmen, pikemen (medieval units) or halberdiers at the imperial age  :P
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:49 am    Post subject:

Well, I guess when they look less medieval you'll also have less of a problem with that. Regardless of that, I find it remarkable that you didn't find the quote button in post editor, but the code button, which is right next to it, lol.
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