More Realistic Gameplay

 
   Forum Index -> NE Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Firangi
Settler
Settler


Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:53 am    Post subject: More Realistic Gameplay

I want to make some suggestions regarding the Game-play of the mod and what i think would be more realistic if made possible in the game.

    Arrow Cavalry archers in the game stop to make an attack but in real world this is not the reason why they were used, so if it could be possible to make them attack while they're running, that'd be really great.



    Arrow Hand Cavalry when charged over Infantry wasn't supposed to stop first to make an attack, contrarily it was supposed trample over units in 3 to 4 infantry lines while running and then slow down to engage in combat, it'd be amazing if it could happen in the game.



    Arrow If at later Ages walls could be replaced by the Fortified Walls and ranged infantry units can climb on them to defend their colony without being attacked by melee units that'd look pretty realistic.



    Arrow Infantry and Cavalry units shouldn't be able to attack Fortified walls instead they(only Infantry) should use ropes and ladders to climb on them.



    Arrow Artillery should cost more and have strict build limits so that game relies mostly on infantry, since too much artillery vanishes infantry in seconds.

    Spoiler:



    Arrow Forts and Castles should have multiple but direction specific guns so that they didn't come down too easy because it can attack only one direction at a time.



    Arrow Ranged units shouldn't be able to attack across the buildings.



    Arrow When changed from Volley/Stagger to Melee mode, ranged Infantry units should run towards enemy unit, if and only if enemy unit is in its line of sights.



    Arrow There should be trainable Flag Bearer and Military Drummer units that should give some kind of aura to nearby units.





I really look forward for NE Development team to take my suggestions under consideration and respond with a hope of possibility.
Thank You.
_________________
Regards elFarangi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SAOL
Emperor
Emperor


Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 23251
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:46 am    Post subject:

Hello and welcome!

So, in conclusion you more or less want AoE to be like the battle mode in Total Ware games?

I'm not a technical expert, but I think it's safe to say some of these things are impossible to achieve. Not to mention that it's more akin to making a new game than modifying an existing one.

About flag bearers and drummers... there are several threads with discussions on that topic.

The artillery thing has a certain point to it: artillery spams are annoying and silly.
_________________
Join
WWLLUASCLWPJ
We Who Loathe Long or Unnecessary Abbreviations and Similar Clusters of Letters Without Proper Justification

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Skype Name
Firangi
Settler
Settler


Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:04 pm    Post subject:

Thank You SAOL,
you say :
Quote:
" it's safe to say some of these things are impossible to achieve. "

could you please mention which ones?
_________________
Regards elFarangi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Silmariel
Conquistador
Conquistador


Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Posts: 356
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:23 pm    Post subject:

I'd guess those are:
-trampling cavalry (in fact there is already a trample mode for all cavalry units, doesn't look much different though)
-ladder/rope climbing infantry
-units on walls (fortress walls itself won't be included as there is an issue with positioning)
-moving and firing ranged cavalry due to the lack of animations. They already have a higher rate of fire though if I'm correct to make up for the lack of hit and run tactics.

Some things as a reworked artillery system are planned for future releases anyway. Others seem to be in place in already (infantry soldiers charge with their bayonettes if you leave them in auto agression-mode). While others do not at all suit the game itself in my opinion. If you want to playa military simulation you are better off with other games such as the Total War Series you linked pictures of. Age of Empires is not intended for that in my opinion. Someone tried that though and he is even closely associated with the NE team. Check out the 100 Days mod. That might suit your style of playing more I could imagine even though it lacks most elements you requested.

And: Why does everyone what drummers and flagbearers in? Spain's missionairies are already a pain in the arse to manoeuver around, even though they are much quicker than any infantry unit. The only smart implementation of boosting units are the Indian Mandsabar units, in my opinion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tilanus Commodor
NE Commander
NE Commander


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 5081
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:01 am    Post subject:

I put one of your images into a spoiler, because it was too large. Please pay attention to the layout of your post. Generally your post perfectly fits into the countless debates of "gameplay vs. realism".
Since NE is a game (and no simulation), gameplay has to trump realism to ensure everybody has fun. Because realism is not fun to play and not balanced. You will want balance to ensure fairness. Also, a game like AoE3 is also just a software that comes with individual technical limitations and as SAOL already pointed out some things are impossible to do in AoE3. Let me say one last thing before I go address your ideas individually:

If one would technically be able to realize most of your ideas, it would require a complete overhaul of game balance. Yes, you can literally forget the AoE3 counter-system. Just ask yourself, if you would be willing to change dozens of stats of units, HC cards, technologies and whatsoever that got specific values because they all share the same fundament of balance. There is that wise saying that I think everybody knows: Never touch a running system. It perfectly applies to games.

Quote:
Cavalry archers in the game stop to make an attack but in real world this is not the reason why they were used, so if it could be possible to make them attack while they're running, that'd be really great.

Yes, in reality they do so. However, it is technically not possible for units in AoE3 to perform an additional action while moving. Apart from that, there are further reasons why this feature is a complete overkill to do:

  1. If you're serious about your realism approach, you'd need to apply that to all units that could do that in reality, not just cavalry archers, but also ships, dragoons, musketeers, who were in reality technically also able to fire while moving. This is a shitload of work already, even without balance considerations.

  2. If you have both types of units, sort of drive-by shooting units and others who don't such as artillery, you create additional complexity in balance, because you'd need to counter-balance the gap of fighting capabilities between these units. While this is surely possible, more complexity doesn't only mean more balance work but also always more potential to fail.

  3. If you'd go a lil further with your realism argument, you'd certainly come and agree to the point that shooting while moving comes with less range and accuracy. Oh wait, accuracy? In AoE3 such a variable doesn't really matter yet. An additional element of accuracy would even mean more complexity. More stuff to balance, more room to mess it all up.
So if you ask me - and that's what you do with that post - then I say the whole effort is not worth it, even if it would technically be possible (which I said it is not).

Quote:
Hand Cavalry when charged over Infantry wasn't supposed to stop first to make an attack, contrarily it was supposed trample over units in 3 to 4 infantry lines while running and then slow down to engage in combat, it'd be amazing if it could happen in the game.

Basically same arguments as above, since this would also be a drive-by attack, which doesn't work in AoE3.

Quote:
If at later Ages walls could be replaced by the Fortified Walls and ranged infantry units can climb on them to defend their colony without being attacked by melee units that'd look pretty realistic.

  1. There are no climbing animations in AoE3 and no comparable case where "garrisoned units" are visibly performing an action inside or on top of another object (i.e. when in town center or ships). Things that don't have an example in the original game always create a huge workload in modding.

  2. Historically, with the introduction of gunpowder started the decline of fortifications such as towers and walls. So it would be quite of an ahistorical thing to do to make walls more effective in late game.

  3. If we'd take this realism argument serious, it would mean that units on walls gain a benefit in terms of stats such as improved range, line of sight and armour/hitpoints. This is a game however and competitive people will always try to exploit things that are possible to do. Not all players try to replay or reenact historical military warfare, but there are enough who will do everything possible to win. And if that means that you can build walls offensively to exploit this statistical bonus, they sure will do it. I don't think this will have a desirable effect.

Quote:
Infantry and Cavalry units shouldn't be able to attack Fortified walls instead they(only Infantry) should use ropes and ladders to climb on them.

I mentioned the lack of climbing animations and code for that already. Man, but if you would just realize how crazy your ideas are, let me try to explain to that:

The thing that you want here brings up dozens of complicated questions that someone has to find an answer to. (And that ass would be me I guess.) Please understand that just because you can visually imagine something happen in AoE3, it doesn't mean it's a code-wise possible and reasonable thing to do in terms of game design. Let me give you some examples for the questions a feature like this would bring up:
  1. Since you mentioned cavalry, what would happen with the idle horses if we were to make this realistic? I guess they would stay in the game forever just as in ETW when their riders die in action?
  2. How can an "owner" re-mount a horse that he left? I mean, technically, not in your imagination. Is it like garrison?
  3. Who can re-mount horses and who can not? Can allied soldiers take my horses?
  4. What are the possible interactions with idle horses for both myself, my allies and my enemies? Does the game get better with these interactions or is it rather too much?
  5. If that mount feature would technically work, shouldn't this always be possible and not only for attacking walls?
  6. If this mount feature should work everywhere, doesn't a mounted unit need different stats than dismounted units? You have different capabilities on a horse at least and let me tell you that different speed isn't the only difference between cavalry and infantry in a game.
  7. If mounted and dismounted units need to have different stats, how would this look like in detail?
  8. How would hundreds of idle horse 3d models impact the performance of an AoE3 match? (You need to remember, all 3d objects within a map have an impact of performance. The more objects the heavier the memory for the GPU.)
  9. Regarding the climbing in general: You said they should climb on them, what will they do there? The AoE3 walls don't have a platform to stand on. So we would need to do new walls with new destruction animations and so on, yes?
  10. How would this climbing animation process look like and end? Would they jump from top of the wall down to the ground?
  11. Let's say units could stand on top of a wall and fight there: Would enemy units that are about to enter a wall platform have a disadvantage, because the defenders are for real in the better position? How do these statistical boni look like? Is it possible to exploit them?
  12. How wide do the walls need to be that there is enough space for units to move?
  13. How many units can fight on a single wall piece?
  14. Since walls are not hard to take down with some artillery: Will all units die that were trying to climb or on the wall or will they receive a certain amount of damage? If so, how large should the damage be?
  15. What about my own units and those of allies, will they suffer damage or die right away when the wall they were standing on was destroyed? Would a dismounted Cuirassier survive it while a Pikeman would die?
  16. What about units than can train other units? Could they do that on the walls too or are they not allowed to climb a wall even if they are also infantry and cavalry?
  17. If they can also climb the wall: How do I tell the game pet jaguars and hussars can not be trained on top of walls? Or should that be possible?
  18. If hussars and pets can be trained on walls, how do they get off again? Will they use some sort of slide?
  19. etc.

You see, I could go on and on about it. I hope you see the overkill of work this creates and how tiny the gain is. I mean, how often do players even build walls? I don't think I go too far when I say that you're pretty naive about the criteria ideas for game features need to fulfill to be good ideas.

Quote:
Artillery should cost more and have strict build limits so that game relies mostly on infantry, since too much artillery vanishes infantry in seconds.

We can indeed limit the use of artillery. I don't think they should cost more though. Build limits or changed stats would be fine already. Then again, changing stats for units also means that all techs that affect these units need to be reworked as well. So build limits might be the more efficient solution.

Quote:
Forts and Castles should have multiple but direction specific guns so that they didn't come down too easy because it can attack only one direction at a time.

If you would have taken a closer look on where the shots are coming from towers and fort, you'd have seen they have guns pointing into four directions. If you're talking about multiple guns shooting parallely, then this would require some intensive rebalancings again. Not completely impossible to balance, but very tricky at least.

Quote:
Ranged units shouldn't be able to attack across the buildings.

Oh, I know this is a heavily disputed thing. Games are only capable of showing abstractions of reality. It is all very metaphorical. I pointed out the tough problems with units standing on walls to shoot on approaching enemies. Units shooting through walls was Ensemble Studios' admittedly not very good-looking solution to avoid units on walls and other buildings, but what alternatives did they really have?

I haven't fully made up my mind about this one yet, so I might be missing a few good arguments here. However, if units couldn't shoot through buildings, this would make the moving speed of units more important and lots of bottleneck fights would appear more frequently.

Here's also one tricky issue regarding artillery: While a cannon can easily shoot in reality (and also AoE3) over multiple buildings from a distance, it can not shoot over a building that is just 1 meter away from its muzzle. The balance considerations and technical additions that would be needed to make this work are everything but easy. They're very complex and mindcracking indeed. And I doubt the best solution would technically be possible with AoE3.

By the way, you could use the realism argument also to criticize that a formation of 50 Musketeers shoots through each other, but notably you didn't do that. In reality maximum 2-3 parallel lines of line infantry could shoot into one direction at the same time. In AoE3 a formation of 5 lines can shoot through everybody's head into the enemy's direction. So you're also quite selective about your perception of what is realistic in AoE3 and what is not.

Quote:
When changed from Volley/Stagger to Melee mode, ranged Infantry units should run towards enemy unit, if and only if enemy unit is in its line of sights.

I don't quite follow, they do that already. Units do not have only line of sight, but also an auto-attack range which is usually a few numbers smaller than the line of sight. Ranged units set to melee mode do auto-attack enemies on sight. So not really sure what you want here. If you'd want formations of ranged infantry to attack with a bayonet charge as in ETW, then sorry, wrong game. AoE3 doesn't work like that, because one unit in AoE3 really means one unit while in TW games one unit equals up to hundreds.

Quote:
There should be trainable Flag Bearer and Military Drummer units that should give some kind of aura to nearby units.

It would look more atmospherical, I agree. But why are they necessary for the game? It's not as if there are not already enough ways to boost your units. By always adding stacking up booster over booster units can get hilariously freaky stats. Caution is a good fellow when designing games and naivity your worst enemy. I think that sums up my answer pretty well.
_________________
Napoleonic Era Project Leader


** Support me to support NE **

Test your Age of Empires knowledge in my
Grand Age of Empires quiz! King Green!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Firangi
Settler
Settler


Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:43 am    Post subject:

keep in mind the behavior of Cliffs.
If units can stand on them their must be some kind of attribute attached to them, which may make it possible for the walls too.
_________________
Regards elFarangi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Firangi
Settler
Settler


Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:57 am    Post subject:

Quote:
I don't quite follow, they do that already. Units do not have only line of sight, but also an auto-attack range which is usually a few numbers smaller than the line of sight. Ranged units set to melee mode do auto-attack enemies on sight. So not really sure what you want here. If you'd want formations of ranged infantry to attack with a bayonet charge as in ETW, then sorry, wrong game. AoE3 doesn't work like that, because one unit in AoE3 really means one unit while in TW games one unit equals decades up to hundreds.


I know they do auto attack, but they approach enemy by walking very slow, and get damaged too much on their way, i really wish they could run toward enemy.
_________________
Regards elFarangi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Firangi
Settler
Settler


Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:06 am    Post subject:

but anyway, i get your point, thanks for the response! Smile
_________________
Regards elFarangi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SAOL
Emperor
Emperor


Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 23251
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:50 pm    Post subject:

Firangi wrote:
keep in mind the behavior of Cliffs.
If units can stand on them their must be some kind of attribute attached to them, which may make it possible for the walls too.
Buildings and terrain are not the same things. It's just a small area where units can't walk, really.

I wrote this to contrast Tilanus' oddly exhaustive reply.
_________________
Join
WWLLUASCLWPJ
We Who Loathe Long or Unnecessary Abbreviations and Similar Clusters of Letters Without Proper Justification

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Skype Name
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> NE Forum All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group | Page design by Tilanus Commodor & michfrm.