Who do you want to be NE new natives?
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Pawelec_POLAND
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:57 pm    Post subject:

Oh my, something is quite wrong here about Savoy, I need to read different sources. Wikipedia and my academic book give me contrary information. As for NE2, I think it has little sense to include Savoy in a mod which features nation unified by House of Savoy-Carignano. It would kill the last pieces of accuracy we're trying to save. Every state related to Italy is included in that civ, so I won't propose any more Italian states as natives.

As I wrote, Bohemians don't deserve to be natives in this game because they lacked proper military in the period. I see no problem here.

I must have missed Württembergians, they seem to cover Palatines. There's even a Wittelsbach-related tech, which makes it up for Palatine rulers.

To fully recreate historic events in Central and Eastern Europe, Cossacks and Transylvanians would be needed. But including Wallachians, Transylvanians, Moldavians and Bulgars to fit the map seems far-fetched, therefore I'd opt for Vlachs as a broader group to include them all.

Let's leave Europe and look somewhere else, probably no maps for these regions exist yet. Americas have way more natives than they need. How about some Indonesian natives? Javanese, Sundanese, Malays? Or maybe go to Australia and add Aborigines? My knowledge of African history is not better than my German, which is sehr schlecht, so I'll only mention Songhai and Beninese.

Of course all of these are just suggestions.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:06 pm    Post subject:

I do believe that NE is focusing primarily on Europe, maybe some more Middle East to fit Persia, but I don't think NE will make more African maps and I definitely do not see Indonesian maps coming.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:09 pm    Post subject:

Haha, are you going to make a running gag now of your Deutsch, welches offenbar sehr schlecht ist? Mr. Green

I did indeed imagine to cover the famous Savoyard cuirassiers somehow in the Italian civ.

Military units are not a must for natives. I could even imagine natives without any native, but for that the techs would need to be worth it (and not duplicates of existing ones). So if you can make up your mind about these, I'm all ears.

Yes, Palatines are covered by Württembergers and Wittelsbachers are covered by Bavarians.

Non-European Natives
Aborigines - possibly
Beninese - possibly
Javanese - yes.
Malays - no.
Songhai - no.
Sundanese - no.
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Pawelec_POLAND
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:27 pm    Post subject:

Tilanus Commodor wrote:
Haha, are you going to make a running gag now of your Deutsch, welches offenbar sehr schlecht ist? Mr. Green
That's pretty much everything I can say in German. They've tried to teach me German for three years in high school, but I've secretly attended French classes and managed to get all German tests from former students. I think the teacher didn't notice, I got the highest mark in German without actually knowing a word Mr. Green So yes, a running joke is a solution here. Worse than my German is really really bad, but it still exists... somewhere.

This thread surprises me. Tilanus responding on the fly and accepting some of natives I thought would be rejected right away. Well played, sir. The element of surprise award goes to you.

And I won't even hide that I give you my native suggestions based on Polish history. Northern Wars and the Delude need some new factions (namely Balts/Curonians, Cossacks and Vlachs/Transylvanians) to be present. My most common setup for a skirmish game is Poles, Russians, Swedes and Ottomans in different combinations of alliances.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:30 pm    Post subject:

I do agree that Tilanus did give us a surprise here, I even said no as I thought Tilanus would never exit Europe. Also it's good to see that someone else does historical scenario set-ups as I do.
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Pawelec_POLAND
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:38 pm    Post subject:

I miss that AoE2 approach to scenarios in AoE3. The campaign is way too RPG-ish. Special civs, units, plot... I'd like to see historical campaigns included instead, like Thirty Years War or American War of Independence.

Thinking about history of Canada reminded me of another possible natives, the Inuit.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:43 pm    Post subject:

If an African native is added may I suggest Mali, I could give ideas if you like.

Also as an Artic native I see Sami as far more fitting than Inuit, though I guess we could have both.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:19 pm    Post subject:

Eventually NE will feature more natives. I opened this topic to see if anyone could give a few good ideas and links Devil Well NE 2.2 main focus is to optimize the gameplay of the current european civilizations (including the original ones) and introducing the new civilizations. Without forgetting that some old units will be kicked out, others will have new textures and there will be many new units Cool
There will be new maps and new natives in NE 2.2 though, but I guess that after it the team will focus much more on them, and of course there will be non-european natives Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:08 pm    Post subject:

Pawelec_POLAND wrote:
That's pretty much everything I can say in German. They've tried to teach me German for three years in high school, but I've secretly attended French classes and managed to get all German tests from former students. I think the teacher didn't notice, I got the highest mark in German without actually knowing a word Mr. Green So yes, a running joke is a solution here. Worse than my German is really really bad, but it still exists... somewhere.

This is why I stopped caring about school at some point, you just can't take it serious. lol In Deutsch macht mir niemand was vor, ir kalbu lietuviskai biskuti, et intellego Latinum, mais je ne pas parle francais! C'est la grande merde. Mr. Green

Quote:
This thread surprises me. Tilanus responding on the fly and accepting some of natives I thought would be rejected right away. Well played, sir. The element of surprise award goes to you.

Who says I'm accepting anything and not just confirming choices I have already made myself? Devil

Quote:
And I won't even hide that I give you my native suggestions based on Polish history. Northern Wars and the Delude need some new factions (namely Balts/Curonians, Cossacks and Vlachs/Transylvanians) to be present. My most common setup for a skirmish game is Poles, Russians, Swedes and Ottomans in different combinations of alliances.

That's perfectly fine. After all, you'll have much a greater expertise for these natives than anyone who's not versed in Polish or Eastern European history. Wink

@Orwell: To be honest I yet know too little about African empires to make any profound choices. If we make it to realize African maps, they'll be few due to the lack of focus. I currently see 4 possible choices for Central African natives which would be Ashanti, Dahomey, Benin and possibly Mali. I know very little about these civilizations myself yet and thus I can not base decisions or opinions on anything. If you'd like to iterate on this subject, you may open a new thread dedicated to the NE coverage of Africa.

On Sami/Inuit natives: It's funny, in the "old" NE2, there used to be Sami/Inuit natives for years without them ever getting released. I wouldn't imagine to offend these people, but putting their neglectible civilizational prestige on the same level as that of the other covered European natives would be on the level of absurdity such as having the Aztecs as a major civ equally next to the British or French Empire. Eventually some of their techs such as the Saami Reindeer Husbandry and the Lapp Sleds were merged into the Finnish natives though. So in the end, Sami people are actually covered. Inuit, nope.

Pawelec_POLAND wrote:
I miss that AoE2 approach to scenarios in AoE3. The campaign is way too RPG-ish. Special civs, units, plot... I'd like to see historical campaigns included instead, like Thirty Years War or American War of Independence.

I second that. Want to write a script? Devil
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Pawelec_POLAND
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:45 pm    Post subject:

Tilanus Commodor wrote:
Pawelec_POLAND wrote:
I miss that AoE2 approach to scenarios in AoE3. The campaign is way too RPG-ish. Special civs, units, plot... I'd like to see historical campaigns included instead, like Thirty Years War or American War of Independence.

I second that. Want to write a script? Devil
If it doesn't mean actually making the scenarios I can consider it. After the mod reaches more or less final stage the campaign will be needed. Of course I'd prefer to work on a Central/Eastern European campaign. Second Northern War is especially interesting.

As this thread was meant to be about new natives: how about a new thread to discuss possible campaigns for NE2?

Back on topic: well, it's true the Inuit weren't that important to colonial powers. But I couldn't help imagining these nicely looking igloos... There's however one eyecandy object which must be added: cypress trees. How can we make Mediterranean scenarios without them?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:04 pm    Post subject:

Cypress and olive trees would be nice, I imagine olive trees would actually give you food though.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:54 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Non-European Natives
Aborigines - possibly


Surprised ...So there are "possible" plans for an Australian map? Sweet! Mr. Green This mod just keeps getting better and better. Can't wait for NE2.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:13 pm    Post subject:

I think, for the sake of it, that I should issue a reminder of this old thread. There are actually some sensible things in those 32 pages. It's a window to the past Razz

http://www.ne.elpea.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=sami&start=0
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Firestorm
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:40 pm    Post subject:

SAOL wrote:
I think, for the sake of it, that I should issue a reminder of this old thread. There are actually some sensible things in those 32 pages. It's a window to the past Razz

http://www.ne.elpea.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=sami&start=0


Thanks for posting that link SAOL! I'm new on this forum so I imagine that there are a lot of topics which I have no clue about them. Anyway, after having a quick look at the first suggestions (First page Rolling Eyes ) I noted that most of them are XV or XVI century units, which I'm trying to avoid. I will have another look at it but my model for natives are the last ones introduced in NE i.e Bavarians, Barbary Pirates and Finns. Tilanus also has plans for a new type of natives which is a mystery for me but once revealed I will try to adapt it for the future natives of NE2 Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:05 pm    Post subject:

I don't see much need for many more natives. Give us those that were already confirmed by now and I'm happy. Don't get WotTAized! Rather expand current civs with minor civs (more importance for the aforementioned Hungarians and Bohemians within the Austrian civ for example).
Only minor that could come to my mind: Irish in case no one mentioned them before.
On the other hand one could have additional German states as minors. Currently the choice of german minors seems a bit random (Saxony?). Tyrol could be decent minor with their distinctive culture but as Bavarians are depicted with a very similar unit they are better off as an Austrian revolution option.


The most suitable candidat for a scenario for obvious reasons are Napoleon's campaigns I would presume. I started to do one for myself once but failed miserably with area-building. Trigger-handling is easy though. I even managed a spectacular camera shot with the Bey's horse mounting on top of a cliff with the mamelukes chasing by in the background.Whatever...
I quickly sketched a few missions:

1. Italian campaign: some sort of reversed tower defense, so basically a siege mission. Befriend Italians for additional units/ressources and destroy the Austrian fort. There are tons of already existing scenarios that work this way.

2. Egyptian Campaign: Starting with few ships you first have to seize Malta as a base by disabling it's fortifications. Under constant attack by the british navy you ship your units to Egypt where you have to cope with few ressources (mainly in the desert so your settler's are easy prey for), Mameluke-raiders and ottoman attacks.

3. Coup d'État: Relying only on artillery and spies' special abilities in an urban surroundings (similar to the rescuing of the Shah in TAD's India-campaign) you have to dissolve the parliament and take "care" of your political enemies.

4. Austria/Prussia/Creation of the Rhine-Confed
Many important battles such as Austerlitz, Jena/Auerstedt, Leipzig, Wagram/Aspern where fought in German lands. I could imagine this mission centering on the creation of the Conféderation du Rhine by solving various minor quests for small German states/settlements thus allowing you to build tradeposts and being granted appropriate units while Austrians and Prussians trying to interfere.

5: Trafalgar: Another sea-centered map. First (re)create your fleet while spanish guerilla raids your carpenters, fight against the British navy later with the Spanish fleet as your ally. Main goal: Sink Nelson's ship.

5. Russian Campaign
Keep your army together, bombard the mighty walls of Moscow and defend your artillery against the raiding cossacks.

6. Waterloo
Final showdown, basically a bonus mission where you have to hold out as long as you can against British, Dutch and (late-arriving) Prussians. This could be expanded into fiction with an infinite stream of new arriving enemies I guess.

PS: Anyone mentioned Norwegian Ski-troopers already? Neutral
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:14 am    Post subject:

Quote:
To fully recreate historic events in Central and Eastern Europe, Cossacks and Transylvanians would be needed. But including Wallachians, Transylvanians, Moldavians and Bulgars to fit the map seems far-fetched, therefore I'd opt for Vlachs as a broader group to include them all.

Pawelec, would you mind making more detailed suggestions for these? Which units and techs could you imagine?

SAOL wrote:
I think, for the sake of it, that I should issue a reminder of this old thread. There are actually some sensible things in those 32 pages. It's a window to the past Razz

http://www.ne.elpea.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=sami&start=0

Ha, SAOL, mind and keeper of the forum archives. Devil I was recently finding exactly the same thread when I was using the forum's search. Mr. Green

Silmariel wrote:
I don't see much need for many more natives. Give us those that were already confirmed by now and I'm happy. Don't get WotTAized! Rather expand current civs with minor civs (more importance for the aforementioned Hungarians and Bohemians within the Austrian civ for example).

Natives are fun. Mr. Green They're much easier and faster to do than major civs while providing a very similar potential of historical coverage.

I link this to the availability of well done maps though as opposed to WoL that has been strictly forcing their aim to cover as much civs as possible as majors. So no need to fear getting WotTAized! Wink

While you mention Bohemians and Hungarians: I see more potential in the Magyars as additional native site as opposed to Bohemians, which might be better off in the Austrian and German civ.
Quote:
Only minor that could come to my mind: Irish in case no one mentioned them before.

If we manage to get a solid Ireland map, there'll be Irish natives for sure. Smile
Quote:
On the other hand one could have additional German states as minors. Currently the choice of german minors seems a bit random (Saxony?). Tyrol could be decent minor with their distinctive culture but as Bavarians are depicted with a very similar unit they are better off as an Austrian revolution option.

Tyrol Arrow Austrians
Saxony Arrow HRE (even though I agree there might be the possibility of a native site)

Spoiler:


Quote:
The most suitable candidat for a scenario for obvious reasons are Napoleon's campaigns I would presume. I started to do one for myself once but failed miserably with area-building. Trigger-handling is easy though. I even managed a spectacular camera shot with the Bey's horse mounting on top of a cliff with the mamelukes chasing by in the background.Whatever..

Good luck in becoming a good scenario designer then. Mr. Green
Quote:
I quickly sketched a few missions:

1. Italian campaign: some sort of reversed tower defense, so basically a siege mission. Befriend Italians for additional units/ressources and destroy the Austrian fort. There are tons of already existing scenarios that work this way.

2. Egyptian Campaign: Starting with few ships you first have to seize Malta as a base by disabling it's fortifications. Under constant attack by the british navy you ship your units to Egypt where you have to cope with few ressources (mainly in the desert so your settler's are easy prey for), Mameluke-raiders and ottoman attacks.

3. Coup d'État: Relying only on artillery and spies' special abilities in an urban surroundings (similar to the rescuing of the Shah in TAD's India-campaign) you have to dissolve the parliament and take "care" of your political enemies.

4. Austria/Prussia/Creation of the Rhine-Confed
Many important battles such as Austerlitz, Jena/Auerstedt, Leipzig, Wagram/Aspern where fought in German lands. I could imagine this mission centering on the creation of the Conféderation du Rhine by solving various minor quests for small German states/settlements thus allowing you to build tradeposts and being granted appropriate units while Austrians and Prussians trying to interfere.

5: Trafalgar: Another sea-centered map. First (re)create your fleet while spanish guerilla raids your carpenters, fight against the British navy later with the Spanish fleet as your ally. Main goal: Sink Nelson's ship.

5. Russian Campaign
Keep your army together, bombard the mighty walls of Moscow and defend your artillery against the raiding cossacks.

6. Waterloo
Final showdown, basically a bonus mission where you have to hold out as long as you can against British, Dutch and (late-arriving) Prussians. This could be expanded into fiction with an infinite stream of new arriving enemies I guess.

You're right with what you say about the major need or high priority of a Napoleonic campaign. I make no secret of it though, that I've ironically never been a burning admirer of neither Napoleon nor details of his campaigns. Instead I'm more on Pawelec's side preferring the AoE2 storytelling which included a 3rd person narrator and hence the view of a secondary or trivial participant of the story. I'd find it boring to basically reenact Napoleon's vita chapter per chapter. I'm not a chronist or something.

More interesting for me would it be to tell for example the development of a regiment or a part of it that fought on many battlefields and can thus be treated like a developing character.

I also don't think that Napoleon is a tragic or sympathetic character. So far I'd just see the possibility to draw the character sheet of a perfectionist, megalomaniac, elitist, intellectual, coldly calculating and pathetically public person hungry for nothing else but power. His generals have more potential. ^^

Btw I'd appreciate this discussion happening in another thread, which is why I spoilered this. Smile



Quote:
PS: Anyone mentioned Norwegian Ski-troopers already? Neutral

It'll be an upgrade of the Snaphaner. Wink
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