Who do you want to be NE new natives?
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GoTDTruth
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:16 am    Post subject:

Quote:
It would have been very interesting if you added Ukrainians as natives. They played a very significant role in Russian, Polish, Ottoman and Swedish conflicts.


I'm not sure about the Natives of Ukraine as simply being "Ukrainians". I believe the Tatars were more specifically the natives of the region. For example, the Crimean Khanate existed in the area of modern Ukraine and fits rather well within the time period of NE. If generic Tatar natives were added they could be used on various maps of Eastern Europe and Asia.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:00 am    Post subject:

GoTDTruth wrote:
Korean natives (or simply Joseon)
Defensive bonuses/units

May I ask why defensive?

Quote:
Units

Were all of the units you suggested used in the timeline of NE (1500-1815)?

Quote:
1. Gakgung "Gungdo" Cheap Archers, large production (25?)

An archer always works. Even though there are a lot of them already, which is why I'd like to get to know more about Korean archery in general, so that I can create unique stats. What exactly does Gakgung and Gungdo mean literally?

I've browsed the URL that is mentioned in two of your images and found the site of xman1717 and a lot more pics. Sadly I don't know any Korean Mr. Green Can you maybe assign the troop names to these pictures?

Spoiler:


#1 - Anything known about Korean Cav Archer and Lancers?

#2 - Anything known about Korean Musketeers?

#3 - seems like a good complement of the foot archer

#4 - Are these medieval Koreans? (@ the boats)




Quote:
2. Pyeongon Cavalry17th century Korean heavy cavalry with two-handed flails

Hm, a native version of the Iron Flail. Mr. Green

Quote:
2. Hwacha artillery, defensive, anti-ship/infintry

Looks cool (and is doable). When was it used?

Quote:
3. Turtle ship; fast, high health/armor?, short range (usually used in tactic of ramming)

Do you mean the same one as in AoE2 or was the turtle ship design improved/changed in the early modern times?

Quote:
Techs
1. northern frontier - ships 2 Castle wagons
2. Tangpyeongchaek - a policy of maintaining balance and equality between political factions (possibly gives extra Exp or sends small number of heavy cavalry flail)

Uh, Tangpyeongchaek is a complicated word Mr. Green What does it mean? ^^
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GoTDTruth
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:14 am    Post subject:

Tilanus Commodor wrote:
Quote:
May I ask why defensive?

during the Joseon period (13921897) Korea had very long periods of peace. Generally their military played a defensive role of defending against raiders from the northern frontier or controlling the pirates at sea. Even at the northern frontier hill forts were used to defend local population. At sea the Korean Navy was relatively advanced cannon and tactics (compared to pirates or even Japanese) so maybe I should say defensive/naval? Wink


Quote:
Were all of the units you suggested used in the timeline of NE (1500-1815)?


yes all of these units are based around a timeline of 1500-1815.


Quote:
What exactly does Gakgung and Gungdo mean literally?


Gakgung is the name of the traditional Korean reflex bow. apparently it translates directly to "nation bow". I'm pretty sure Gungdo is simply the art of using the Gakgung. Gungdo archery.


Quote:
Can you maybe assign the troop names to these pictures?


Sad Sadly, I am unaware as to what specific names these troops were given. I will look into translating some of that website and see if i can find anything.

Spoiler:


Quote:
#1 - Anything known about Korean Cav Archer and Lancers?
#2 - Anything known about Korean Musketeers?


In response to a few of your questions, its important to note that even though Korea had access to things such as muskets there was not a lot of political will to implement these into the military. They were definitely used during this time, but I am not sure to what extent. Throughout the Joseon period archers played a much more important role. I don't know much about Korean cavalry, but these would have been elite units. Korea did not invest much into its land based forces during this time. Its military was not seen with the same level of respect as it was in Japan. I don't see much reason to include the musketeer/arquebus unless you plan to make a Joseon civ. Cool


Quote:
#4 - Are these medieval Koreans? (@ the boats)


Hard to say. But the explosions in the background lead me to say that cannon was probably involved here.




Quote:
Looks cool (and is doable). When was it used?
Do you mean the same one as in AoE2 or was the turtle ship design improved/changed in the early modern times?


Both the Hwacha and the Turtle Ship would have been used in the 15th and 16th centuries. In particular, both of these are seen as playing an important role in the Imjin War (1592-1598). After this both would have continued to be used, but hundreds of years of relative peace makes it hard to guess their service life. The AOE2 Turtle ship is based on the Turtle ships used in the Imjin War. I've seen various images of old drawinging and even modern replicas of Turtle Ships. I'd say that they would look very similar of to the AOE2 version. (but with masts) Razz

http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Noryang_Point


Quote:
Uh, Tangpyeongchaek is a complicated word Mr. Green What does it mean? ^^


I already told you. Razz it means "a policy of maintaining balance and equality between political factions."

https://kuiwon.wordpress.com/2012/12/19/book-of-zhou-the-plan-to-overcome-factionalism/
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Yurashic
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:02 pm    Post subject:

GoTDTruth wrote:
Quote:
It would have been very interesting if you added Ukrainians as natives. They played a very significant role in Russian, Polish, Ottoman and Swedish conflicts.


I'm not sure about the Natives of Ukraine as simply being "Ukrainians". I believe the Tatars were more specifically the natives of the region. For example, the Crimean Khanate existed in the area of modern Ukraine and fits rather well within the time period of NE. If generic Tatar natives were added they could be used on various maps of Eastern Europe and Asia.


There were both Crimean Khanate and Ukrainians on the territory of modern Ukraine.

Crimean Khanate were descendants of Mongols who invaded Russia. They became vassals of the Ottoman Empire in the 15th century.

Ukrainians were under the rule of Polish and Lithuanians up to the uprising of Bogdan Hmelnitsky (1648-1654) when they have driven Polish away with the help from Russia and Crimean Khanate and became an autonomous part of Russian Empire.

In the Northern war (1700-1721) Swedish king Karl XII attacked the Russian Empire and invaded the territory of Ukraine. He got help from the Ukrainian hetman Mazepa, who offered him food and men, but Karl still lost the war.

In later years Ukrainian Cossacks defended Southern borders of Russia and helped in numerous wars against Ottomans.

You could add both.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:12 pm    Post subject:

@GoTDTruth: Thanks for the answers. By the way, if you like, open up a new thread for Koreans/Joseons with the information posted here and complement it with further ideas. Also, you said you could imagine a Joseon civ. I'd like to see your suggestions for them. Think big. Mr. Green

I'll go into more details about your posts later on.

@Yurashic: NE will feature both Cossacks and Tatars. So you may say "Ukrainians are in". Wink
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GoTDTruth
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:32 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Ukrainians were under the rule of Polish and Lithuanians up to the uprising of Bogdan Hmelnitsky (1648-1654) when they have driven Polish away with the help from Russia and Crimean Khanate and became an autonomous part of Russian Empire.

In the Northern war (1700-1721) Swedish king Karl XII attacked the Russian Empire and invaded the territory of Ukraine. He got help from the Ukrainian hetman Mazepa, who offered him food and men, but Karl still lost the war.

In later years Ukrainian Cossacks defended Southern borders of Russia and helped in numerous wars against Ottomans.

You could add both.


Thanks. Mr. Green
This is very interesting. I've known that Ukraine basically means "borderlands", so I've always found it confusing what constitutes early Ukraine. Since Ukrainian can be seen as simply meaning "person of the borderlands." For example, it is confusing when you say "Ukrainian Cossacks", It seems like "Cossacks of the borderlands". Also, Cossacks were known for having autonomous or semi autonomous control of their territory. Confused
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:31 pm    Post subject: Korean Natives

In regards to including some Korean natives, I believe they'd be a good choice, as they were invaded by Japan in 1592 and again, in 1598 (which fits in well with the NE timeline). This war was significant in it's time, because it was the intent of Japan to invade and conquer both Korea and China, and in many ways, they weren't so far off succeeding. Japan was initially successful in conquering and holding large parts of Korea.
The Japanese invading force in both 1592 and 1598 numbered around 150,000, and over the course of it there were over 1,000,000 casualties. In this regard, I think it is a historically important enough event, to include Korean natives.
I'm not too sure about the composition of the Korean Army at the time, other than that it was very technologically and organisationally inferior to the Japanese. However, they had several naval victories using covered, armoured, oar and sail-powered ships, such as the Turtle Ship and Panokseon. In fact, the campaign in AOE II that features the Koreans is actually based on a decisive naval battle from second Japanese invasion of 1598.
I don't know if any of this is helpful or anything, but I found this all really interesting, because of the scale and potential significance of the war, I thought I'd share.
Smile
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Korean Natives

Henry Samuel wrote:
In regards to including some Korean natives, I believe they'd be a good choice, as they were invaded by Japan in 1592 and (...)


Well, I fear Mr. Tilanus here is throwing our good ol' eurocentric view over board. I see a fully fledged Korean civ comin' up and not only a small native settlement.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:04 pm    Post subject:

Lol, Silmariel, stay cool Mr. Green Once I'm interested in Asian stuff, everyone freaks out. ^^
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:28 pm    Post subject:

Expanding and Reworking: Maltese Knights:
I never really liked them as natives, mainly because they seem to be place stuffed with content from the campaigns which fit nowhere else but had to be used somewhere.

For example the Knights of Rhodes don't really make any sense as a tech based on timeprogressed as Maltese retreated from Rhodes at a pretty early point of time. Plus they are much too strong. Also their cavalry unit seems a bit archaic and bland. And hoopthrowers...well...they came with the campaign.

What I would like to see are some additional boni concerning priests/healing/churches and fortifications. This of course has to tie in with any changes made to technologies available at churches and new concepts such as the Danish Roundkirke(sp). As far as I know they also engaged in some pirate activities against the Ottoman Empire and it's vassalls making them the direct counterpart to the Corsairs from the Barbary Coast.
->Due to their background as Hospitallers I think there should be a tech that merges the already nearly congruent surgeon and priest unit and thus allows priests to construct field hospitals.
->They planned and constructed all those fortifications on the small island so there certainly should be a tech or a tech tree that boosts buildings hitpoints, towers damage or even ships a fort. Maybe also giving TC an attack, even while no villagers are garrisoned there. Or reduced cost for repairing buildings. Or fortification buildings costing less gold instead of wood. Possibilities are endless here.
->Any possessions a knight of the order had belong to the Order upon the knight's death. And while I know that similar features have already discussed plenty of times maybe it would fit in here if you would get a small amount of gold(or any res) back from dying Maltese soldiers.
->While I don't suggest that they should get a unique naval vessel like the corsairs, I think that their presence on the Mediterran Sea should be somehow reflected. Maybe by better repair-rates for ships at docks? Also consider that many knights joined the ranks of other navies, eventually becoming some sort of mercenaries.

I don't know about units: maybe you want to keep hoopthrowers out of iconic reasons but the knight cavalry should be be removed and replaced with something else (maybe a special healer or a unit similar to the once planned rottmeyster). And the knights of Rhodes should vanish for reasons mentioned above, except maybe for a singletime-callable melee-minutemen-substitute.

Edit: As I remember you didn't like my idea for American buildings to spawn militia units upon destruction-maybe this could also be incorporated into this civ of stern defenders.

Edit 2: That ridder unit would actually fit damn well. Not only because both flags (Danish and St. John's) are very similar, but also the appearance is remarkably close:
Reenactment

On another note: I'd ditch the Egyptian Natives alltogether. Egypt simply played a very minor role as soon as seatraderoutes to India where established-until the Sues canal was opened.
In my opinion their representation should be restricted to mercenaries such as the mamelukes and Cairo Jannissairs as well as those numerous maps.
I suggest incorporating their benefits elsewhere. For example Desert Training could go to the Tuareg. Extra shipment of Mamelukes could go the France (Napoleon's Guard; maybe Church tech instead of the Lancers?). The fertility of the Nile could be represented within the Ottoman civ (maybe a slow arriving food crate similar to Austria's Danube Tribute) as well as the concept of the Fellahin within the Ottoman settler system or as a shipment similar to the European 'Pioneers'.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:08 pm    Post subject:

What about an Native who is Supporting the whole Team?

Just an idea....
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:08 am    Post subject:

@King of Persia: Possible. Just requires a native civ it fits on. Any ideas?

@Silmariel
To shock you Silmariel: I have a whole concept for a Maltese civ in reserve Devil (just to shock you lol ).

I'm shocked myself though. Mr. Green While sometimes we couldn't disagree more (there'll be some examples in this post as well), you have once in a while exactly the same ideas I already noted myself. Mr. Green I also imagined the Maltese Knight to be a mounted healer, just like the Danish Ridder became. ^^ Had the idea even long before I started making an outline for the Danes. I also know the photo, but rather had it in mind to use the visuals for a Maltese infantryman. I had another draft avl for that Maltese Knight. Healers and Fortifications were also the core traits I figured for the Maltese. So I agree with the ideas you suggested related to that. And I did in fact imagine a unique 'Corso' galley, because piracy and counter-piracy were a main branch in their economic system.

I largely disagree with any of your remarks about Egyptians. They had military political and economic relevance. They were a regional power that under Ali Bey and Muhammad Ali proved their potential as conquerors. The Ottoman and French interventions didn't happen in Egypt for no reason, but because there was power that had to be regained or taken. There are lots of natives in AoE3 and NE with far smaller population density and level of self-governance. And surely, I'll not throw away a complete native civ, just because they don't rank high enough in your very own list of noteworthy historical players. There are a lot more things to consider when asking whether it's a good or bad thing to include certain content in a mod. NE is not only an attempt to appropriately represent actual history of the set timeframe, it is also a game with all its principles of design attached to it.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:26 pm    Post subject:

Well what about frindly outlaws (like robin hood a bit) or nomads?

Nomads could be miltaristic or mixed and the nomads economic.

And each upgrade is for the whole team of course Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:21 pm    Post subject:

Well, thinking about the idea again, it looks like a bad idea from a balance point of view at second sight. Every team member could research these team techs on their own which would result in an uncalculable stacking of effects.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:33 pm    Post subject:

And what if we just gonna make it more expensive than normal?

Or we could use them as mercanaries?
So instead of tech upgrades we could make an mercenarie native.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:10 am    Post subject:

We both know that St.John's hardly qualifies for a full civ so you cannot really shock me with that (if it's that what you meant). But funny that you imagined them in such a similar way. I did some reading about them and they have like hell of an interesting history. I've to admit that the Malta-maps are a bit boring though. I'm-like most of the time-stretching the topic a bit (too much maybe) but what about sizeable fortifications similar to the tradeposts on the silkroadmap? That could be some extra fun. Those script events described in the map preview hardly ever happend when I played the map.

Something that actually does not really fit this topic but I derived it from my suggestion about Maltese Knights: priest vs surgeon
I guess currently nobody uses surgeons as they have to be enabled by shipment. I'd turn them into lategame units similar to Sharpshooter, swashbuckler etc. So they can be trained from the university. Not only do they heal units at fast speed but they also posses an ability to heal during combat (similar to the ability the French explorer has after shipping the advanced explorer shipment) and can build field hospitals.
Priests on the other hand posses a buildlimit (5?) and can be used similar to pharao/Ra-priests in AoM's Egypt. They can be tasked to buildings (only one at a time, so no stacking/abuse) and speed up the building process/unit training/gathering rates by say 10%. Certain civs (Spain, Italy etc) could have special priests or can train a higher number of priests.



About Egypt: contrary to what you believe I did not judge them from a (my) historical point of view. I did from the design point of view you mentioned. And they simple are boring natives. Their unit is somewhat pointless, their techs absolutely bland. They fully deserve their role in history but I doubt they fit as natives. When we talk about Egypt in Nappie's time we have mamelukes, stone of rosetta and similar ancient artifacts and the always fertile Nile. And in my opinion this is better featured via mercenaries (TWO mercenary units), a lot of food on the Nile-maps, treasures on such maps and incorporation into civs such as Ottoman Empire and France. I'm mentioning this because we already had a small discussion about expanding Egyptian natives but didn't see many opportunities. Maybe this has changed, I dont have access to your internal docs of course. But I think (expanded) Tuaregs and Arabs could easily take their place. Also I don't see any other current natives that were less independant than Egyptians. We of course have the varios German states which already are also part of the HRE-civ but they are of course completly sovereign political entities.

TEAM-natives: well, in the end, if you control a certain part of the map and natives yield at least one highly beneficial tech (for example bhakti natives which drastically improve berry gathering) people will switch those TPs around anyway. Technically it should be possible to make techs researchable only once (similar to team shipments which can also not be sent twice). I think this could be an interesting new take on natives.
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