On the Subject of Persia
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:19 pm    Post subject: On the Subject of Persia

So I have decided to start this new topic to discuss unit/building ideas for the upcoming Persian civ, so let's begin:

Leaders


Abbas I; who started a cultural renaissance and fought several campaigns against both the Ottomans and the Mughals.
More Info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbas_I_of_Persia

or

Nader Shah Afshar; the Turkish founder of the Afsharid dynasty who was a brilliant general and is famed for the Sack of Delhi.
More Info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nader_Shah


Unique Units

The Qizilbash; These lancers from Azerbaijan and Turkey played a crucial role in getting the Timur dynasty to collapse and while Abbas did work to weaken them, they played a crucial early role.
So in-game I figure they could be a light, fast lancer available in Age 2, possibly good for harassing the enemy. They wouldn't be cheap either, but exact costs are my best skill so I'll let the team balance stats and prices.
More Info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qizilbash

The Jazayerchi; Musket troops of the Persian army, they had especially heavy caliber muskets and Nader made these troops focus on personal marksmanship.
In-game they would be heavy ranged infantry with a long range, good speed(to represent the fact they mounted horses to march), and normal damage. They could perhaps be one of the strongest troops of Persia once upgraded.
More Info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kirkuk https://goo.gl/OksIeS

Savaran-e Saltanati ;The best of the best,the royal cavalry. Nicknamed the "Redheads of Nader" based on their headwear. Nader often used them as a heavy striking force.
In-game I see them as a home-city only cavalry unit with a curved Persian sword and good speed, they would not only be deadly but fast.
More Info: https://goo.gl/1ybm48

Savaran-e Sepah-e Khorasan; The riders of Khorasan, this cavalry unit was made up of Afghans, Turks, Uzbeks, and Kurds from all over Iran. They proved vital to Nader Shah and many were promoted to Savaran-e Saltanati. They were often armed with muskets and in 1736 it was made the standard weapon of cavalry.
In-game they would be light, fast ranged cavalry but unlike most ranged cavalry they would not have a bonus towards cavalry but towards infantry to represent their role as flanking cavalry.
More Info: See Above

Piyadegan; The melee core of the Persian army, they would follow up after artillery and cavalry strikes and were exclusively armed with spears, swords, maces and axes.
In-game they would be a pikemen replacement with slightly better health and a better variety of weapons.
More Info: https://goo.gl/6TY2as

Unique Building(s)

Bazaar; So Persia has always been seen as the Gateway to the East by Europe and is known for trade so I figured they would get some form of unique market so here is my idea. Besides better sell/buy rates the bazaar, which would have a build limit of 1, would provide access to three different trades to invest in. (Mind the unbalanced ratios, just for concept)(Oh and whether or not a player can invest in all three or just one is subject to discussion)

Persian Carpets
1000 coin to get 500 export and 500 XP
1500 coin to get 750 export and 750 XP
3000 coin to get 1500 export and 1500 XP and a coin trickle

Spices
1000 coin to get 800 food and 200 export
1500 coin to get 1200 food and 300 export
3000 coin to get 2250 food and 750 export and a food trickle

Teak Wood
1000 coin to get 800 wood and 200 export
1500 coin to get 1200 wood and 300 export
3000 coin to get 2250 wood and 750 export and a wood trickle

And yes, I know teak is not from Persia but the bazaar's ability is representative of Persia's silk road ties and Persia's ties to the Indian Ocean trade.




These are all just suggestions, please do not take these as commands.

Hope you enjoyed


More Coming Soon...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:06 pm    Post subject:

Hey Orwell, saw your post much earlier, but didn't find the time to respond yet. So, just a quick response to give some feedback:

We'll go for Nader Shah as AI leader.

Qizilbash - They'll be in for sure as lancers. Not entirely sure about the stats yet.

Jazayerchi - this term rather describes a musketeer standing in the first line of a formation. Musketeers in 2nd line were called Gharachoorlooha (or Qarachurlu). The actual term for Musketeer is Tofangdar or Tofangchi, which is the name the unit will have. We'll design them as a mix of Skirmisher and Musketeer.

Savar - Heavy lancer cavalry. We couldn't decide yet how we will implement them, but we were considering it as Royal Guard for Qizilbashi or as something like a Persian Spahi unit.

Piyadegan - As far as I'm informed this describes all professional archaic infantrymen. I'm saying also 'men' because I think is an actual plural word. We've got a swordsman planned so far, the Shamshirzan. If there were more sources on Piyadegan, I might reconsider it/them. May I ask how you imagine "a better variety of weapons" to be realized in-game?

Bazaar - Bazaar is actually just planned as an alternative name for Markets of Muslim-style civs. Better Buy/Sell rates is something that we consider for Persians though. As for the trades you were suggesting, it may work like this but it also made me think of another idea, that doesn't work with one-time purchases but permanent trickles.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:26 pm    Post subject:

I guess I will try and categorize my response:

AI: I figured you would use Nader Shah though I could see a reference to Abbas, perhaps as a card?

Qizilbash: I recommend them as raiding cavalry.

Jazayerchi: I actually read this later and do recommend the name Tofangchi, though I say as a musketeer unit with more range and heavier damage simply based the heavy-caliber muskets and focus on marksmanship, I now in hindsight say you ought to remove the speed bonus I recommended and add it as a card or tech.

Savar: Well my idea to be a home-city. heavy-hitter cavalry could be seen as a Spahi in a way...

Piyadegan: I do believe it is plural. To add more variety I had two methods perhaps, one more direct and one more indirect.

A. A randomized texture that will give the unit an axe, spear, mace ,or sword.
or
B. The player may choose to provide one weapon each with its own advantage and changing the texture. I.e. give axes means better damage but slower unit for a new texture.

Bazaar: Of course this would not be a onetime purchase in a way, since you have to go through each tier to get to the final one, which provides a weak trickle. Though I would love to hear a new idea...

Thank you for responding and I do still have more ideas, such as perhaps trying to configure a unit roster...
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:05 pm    Post subject:

Orwell wrote:
I could see a reference to Abbas, perhaps as a card?

And/or politician.

Quote:
Jazayerchi: I actually read this later and do recommend the name Tofangchi, though I say as a musketeer unit with more range and heavier damage simply based the heavy-caliber muskets and focus on marksmanship, I now in hindsight say you ought to remove the speed bonus I recommended and add it as a card or tech.

I've figured this is still a unsteady spot in our research. Your source mentions the jazayer musket, which I've never heard of and the jezaail, which I know as a late 19th century (and thus too modern) Afghan sniper rifle. This source of mine identifies this heavy musket as a Chakhmaghi (or Chakhmaghchi/Chakhmaghdar). If you read further in the source you come pretty quickly to something that already is in the game: The Abus Gunner. - And this is also what I imagined the Chakhmaghdar to be. A - most likely from HC shippable - Persian version of the Abus Gun.

I don't know if it's just me btw, but I find Chakmaghdar easier to read as a foreign term than Jazayerchi (which obviously seem to match the same unit).

Quote:
Savar: Well my idea to be a home-city. heavy-hitter cavalry could be seen as a Spahi in a way...

Exactly. On the other hand I try to reduce redundancies and unnecessary duplicates. Both, Qizilbashi and Savaran are lancers, one a bit lighter and the other one a bit heavier, but so far I do not see a fundamental difference in use and armory.

Quote:
Piyadegan: I do believe it is plural. To add more variety I had two methods perhaps, one more direct and one more indirect.

A. A randomized texture that will give the unit an axe, spear, mace ,or sword.
or
B. The player may choose to provide one weapon each with its own advantage and changing the texture. I.e. give axes means better damage but slower unit for a new texture.

Problem with A is that people try to figure out the unit's boni by the weapons they see., i.e. infantry with pikes and spears is assumed to have boni vs. cavalry while one-handed maces, swords and axes tend to be seen as anti-inf. And with B I actually don't see little reason in reality to make units slower or quicker because of the weapon since Persian armory was not that heavy at all. They were pretty agile troops no matter if they had maces, axes or swords.

What you could indeed do is introduce switching times between the different weapons. Then again you have a super-versatile unit next to the already hybrid musketeer. This would create a superiority of infantry you wouldn't want to give an actually cavalry-focused civs such as the Persians. The infantry simply has to get its job done as infantry, but not outperform other infantries in the game with imba uniqueness.

What I'd actually like to resolve first is what their pure melee infantry unit (which they should get) is actually supposed to counter.

Quote:
Bazaar: Of course this would not be a onetime purchase in a way, since you have to go through each tier to get to the final one, which provides a weak trickle. Though I would love to hear a new idea...

Well, it would be each time a different single purchase whereas a trickle grants permanent income. I was actually thinking of combining Markets and Factories, but while this sounds interesting mechanically, it doesn't fit in well to the current concept of the Persian economy boni we built internally. I'd have to figure out first where to tweak numbers in order to make Markets a bit like .. Japanese Shrines? This would basically be my rough idea.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:52 am    Post subject:

Again gonna categorize:

Abbas: Actually your idea is better, he would make a great Age I politician.

Tofangchi: Multiple of my sources specifically name the jazayer musket:
https://goo.gl/o85WXB
https://goo.gl/S4iPX3
https://goo.gl/nHJg7A
You are right in mentioning a tripod but rather than make them a homecity-shippable abus gun here is my idea. The tofangchi would look like a reskinned abus gun( reskinned for uniform) but it would perform the role of the musketeer, but without the cavalry bonus. Stats wise it would do more damage then the musket and have slightly longer range but reload much slower, move slower, and have no melee bonus against cavalry. This slowness would make the unit appear to be worse than the musketeer, which would be fine seeing as how this would pressure the player to focus on cavalry.

Savar: Well one may see two cavalry playing the role, I actually have multiple possible solutions:

A. Make the Qizilbash a raiding cavalry that would be generally useless in combat and the Savar a strong homecity lancer.

B. Make Savar royal guard for qizilbash as recommended by your earlier post

C. Make Savaran-e Saltanati (perhaps we need a way to shorten the name) RG for Qizilbash while Savaran-e Sepah-e Khorasan(most definitely need a way to find shorter name) would be a separate unit, a ranged and fast cavalry.

Piyadegan: I recommend the A method and make them anti-cavalry to protect the tofangchi. If someone can't figure out the stats of anti-cav then they ought to check the stats bar.

Bazaar: Well I did have a different idea to make the techs costlier and rather than a trickle finisher make the final tech grant a new powerful market tech, such as a massive boost of wood production and stronger/costlier buildings for the end of Teak tech.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:26 pm    Post subject:

Orwell wrote:
Abbas: Actually your idea is better, he would make a great Age I politician.

Any idea for an effect? Musketeers or rather some eco/tech thing?

Quote:
Tofangchi: Multiple of my sources specifically name the jazayer musket:
https://goo.gl/o85WXB
https://goo.gl/S4iPX3
https://goo.gl/nHJg7A
You are right in mentioning a tripod but rather than make them a homecity-shippable abus gun here is my idea. The tofangchi would look like a reskinned abus gun( reskinned for uniform) but it would perform the role of the musketeer, but without the cavalry bonus. Stats wise it would do more damage then the musket and have slightly longer range but reload much slower, move slower, and have no melee bonus against cavalry. This slowness would make the unit appear to be worse than the musketeer, which would be fine seeing as how this would pressure the player to focus on cavalry.

Firestorm provided me with this source. Here the most remarkable quotes I found so far regarding musketeers and alike:

Ehsan Yarshater [Center of Iranian Studies] wrote:
Two types of guns were used by the Safavids: the matchlock (fatila) and the fire-flint (cakmaq). The matchlocks were not equipped with rifling (kan) and muzzle (sar-por), so the pellets they used had to be inserted with a ramrod (sonba).
[...]
The Persian arquebus was described as longer and thinner thanits European equivalent.

In the beginning of the linked source you will also find the description of the Tofangchi, which are really just the regular musketeers.

Check these musketeer pics from Safavids, Afsharids and Zand. These musketeers either have none or just very small tripods and it's nothing close to the Abus Gun.

Further there is this quote about the Jazayerchiha:
Ehsan Yarshater [Center of Iranian Studies] wrote:
The 600 strong jaza'eri corps, established in 1654 as Shah Abbas II's bodyguard, was equipped with the jaza'el, a musket so heavy that it could not be fired from the shoulder and was equipped with its own tripod. For greater precision, the Persians also fired regular muskets from a pivoting wooden stand.

So since this is from the same source, I think we can finally conclude that the Jazayerchi is what you mistakenly interpreted as Tofangchi and the Jazayer musket is probably somewhere close or a synonyme to the Chakmaghi (cakmaq) I mentioned earlier. So my conclusion is: Tofangchi = Musketeer, Jazayerchi = Abus Gun-like Musketeer.

In your sources jazayerchis are described carrying out historical dragoon duties. So, mount to move and dismount to fire. This is surprisingly similar to tactics of the historical Zamburaks. Thus I see the following possibilities for the Jazayerchi:
  • Dragoon: Since they historically acted like Dragoons, they could just become Dragoons as in AoE3. They'd be like the Indian Zamburaks then (which were originally copied from Persians). It's yet unclear what will happen to the Indian Zamburak, but it's well possible that it'll be moved entirely to the Persians.
  • Mounted Abus Gun: This interpretation would be closer to the historical reality. It'd work similar to the abolished Partyzant unit with the main difference not being able to attack when mounted, but only when dismounted. This would also fit the historical Persian Zamburak tactics, so the Zamburak could be an upgrade for the Jazayerchi.
  • Shipment Abus Gun: A modified Persian Abus Gun. Most likely accessible from HC.

Quote:
Savar: Well one may see two cavalry playing the role, I actually have multiple possible solutions:

A. Make the Qizilbash a raiding cavalry that would be generally useless in combat and the Savar a strong homecity lancer.

B. Make Savar royal guard for qizilbash as recommended by your earlier post

C. Make Savaran-e Saltanati (perhaps we need a way to shorten the name) RG for Qizilbash while Savaran-e Sepah-e Khorasan(most definitely need a way to find shorter name) would be a separate unit, a ranged and fast cavalry.

These additions to Savaran (which is plural of Savar) are mostly just a reference to the origin of the regiment or something else, the base unit is always the Savar. So you may say there might have been a few elite savaran regiments, but basically it's not different to let's say the European troop type of Cuirassiers, which are commonly defined as charging heavy melee cavalry armed with sabres and existed in a variety of hierarchies such as regular and guard regiments.

Currently I see the Qizilbash more like an Uhlan and the Savar as a mix of Hussar and Lancer.

Quote:
Piyadegan: I recommend the A method and make them anti-cavalry to protect the tofangchi. If someone can't figure out the stats of anti-cav then they ought to check the stats bar.

I'd prefer the opposite actually. Creating a downside in the Persian infantry by having no dedicated cavalry counter, but having to rely on cavalry for that. Then we could keep the Piyadegan and Shamshirzan as quick anti-inf troops armed with sabres.

Quote:
Bazaar: Well I did have a different idea to make the techs costlier and rather than a trickle finisher make the final tech grant a new powerful market tech, such as a massive boost of wood production and stronger/costlier buildings for the end of Teak tech.

Yeah, I figured that and it reminded me of the Moneylending techs in some way. Therefore it's not really a thing I'd like to repeat unnecessarily often.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:33 pm    Post subject:

Abbas: I actually would say to give a shipment of qizilbash, perhaps 4 or 5 qizilbash. This would represent the fact that they put him in power in the first place.

Tofangchi/Jazayerchi: I see tofangchi as musketeers as you said and I actually wanted to suggest Jazayerchi as a partyzant-style mounted unit but I thought having a similar unit to the partyzant would be frowned upon so I finish with, Tofangchi- Muskteer with no anti-cav and Jazayerchi- a mounted abus gun as you recommended.

Savar: I do agree with making the Savar a more hussar/lance like unit and Qizilbash a Uhlan, so may I ask "What is the ranged Persian cavalry?"

Piyadegan: I actually like the idea of making them light anti-infantry because as you correctly pointed out by adding them I removed the debuff I hoped to make in their infantry.

Bazaar: I could see how they remind you of the moneylending techs but I made it more like a resource exchange then a wait-for-more style money-lending tech. My examples were also just examples, you may balance out and swap resources as you see fit. Teak could just as well be ivory and saffron could just as well be incense. The idea of using these resource trades that led up to a final strong tech and/or weak trickle is all I wanted to say should be done to represent the India Ocean and Silk Road trade of Persia.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:25 pm    Post subject:

Orwell wrote:
Abbas: I actually would say to give a shipment of qizilbash, perhaps 4 or 5 qizilbash. This would represent the fact that they put him in power in the first place.

Nah, Abbas was the one who limited the power of the Qizilbashiha and started to found the first gunpowder regiments. So possibly some Tofangdaran and a Military Building Wagon (Outpost etc.).

Quote:
Tofangchi/Jazayerchi: I see tofangchi as musketeers as you said and I actually wanted to suggest Jazayerchi as a partyzant-style mounted unit but I thought having a similar unit to the partyzant would be frowned upon so I finish with, Tofangchi- Muskteer with no anti-cav and Jazayerchi- a mounted abus gun as you recommended.

Since the Partyzant will be dropped, there'd be no duplicates. I might possibly give the Tofangdaran a very small ranged anti-cav bonus, but none in melee.

Quote:
Savar: I do agree with making the Savar a more hussar/lance like unit and Qizilbash a Uhlan, so may I ask "What is the ranged Persian cavalry?"

The Cavalry Archer with a Kamandar RG, that lacks sources though.

Quote:
Bazaar: I could see how they remind you of the moneylending techs but I made it more like a resource exchange then a wait-for-more style money-lending tech. My examples were also just examples, you may balance out and swap resources as you see fit. Teak could just as well be ivory and saffron could just as well be incense. The idea of using these resource trades that led up to a final strong tech and/or weak trickle is all I wanted to say should be done to represent the India Ocean and Silk Road trade of Persia.

I'm still bored by the mechanism, but I will consider it. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:34 pm    Post subject:

Abbas: While he did limit their power, they are who put him in place. Of course you are right that he began making the first gunpowder troops, so some Tofangdaran makes sense.


Tofangchi/Jazayerchi: So we are in agreement

Cavalry Archer: Well it feels odd to give them Cavalry Archers when by 1736 muskets became standard issue among cavalry. My solution would be to make both, Cavalry Archers as anti-cav and a unique Dragoon-like unit which would be anti-inf. Or maybe just replace Cavalry Archer with Dragoon, though this would be ignoring a lot of history.

Bazaar: It may be a boring concept but sometimes you need a few boring concepts in the exciting civ
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:40 pm    Post subject:

@Bazaar: I like the Tilanus' idea of Market/Factory combo. Such a combo needs to have build limit. If you'd like to have few Bazaars, then it wouldn't be a problem for every Bazaar to be controlled separately. With more Bazaars I'd go for Shrine model and set all the Bazaars to produce the same resource. Trickles seem less of a solution to me, as they work even after the Bazaar is destroyed.

If you're looking for interesting techs or HC cards, I'd recommend a tech allowing you to chose between:
A) Trickle of food + coin gathering bonus (for all sources) + wood shipment
B) Trickle of wood + food gathering bonus (for all sources) + coin shipment
C) Trickle of coin + wood gathering bonus (for all sources) + food shipment

And a weird idea: how about a trade unit? A Caravan producing gold while assigned to e.g. Trade Post? Or increasing your income from Trading Posts while located near one?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:45 pm    Post subject:

I actually wanted to do a trade like unit, but I did not know if the mechanics would work. Also I have switched my mind and agree with you and Tilanus about the factory/bazaar combo, I just want to figure out how to make it representative of the different trades.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:17 pm    Post subject:

I have a very interesting idea, but I need to know if it's possible to give negative trickles, taking resources away from the player.

EDIT: Nope, thay can't... Already tested on AoE3 Heaven.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:27 pm    Post subject:

If anything I would just stick with the Bazaar/Factory combo...
So my new idea is a player would select a trade to focus on such as Spices, Rugs, and Teak. Once one is chosen, all bazaars swap to producing you wood and also export if possible. I think that all the trades such produce export if possible, so it would look like:

Teak: Wood and Export

Spices: Food and Export

Rugs: Coin and Export


Also techs may be researched to improve the resource and export production of each, something such as Import Nutmeg from Indonesia would increase food production.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:35 pm    Post subject:

My idea was to take a resource away from the player while producing more of a different resource (or resource and export). But as the negative trickles don't work it's impossible. -0.8 trickle is displayed and works as 0.0 trickle in-game.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:39 pm    Post subject:

The idea is good, but I think the mechanics are impossible. The bazaar/factory will work, if anything I just want to figure out what trade we should represent and as what. Also is export able to be produced in the way I proposed, if not what about XP?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:01 pm    Post subject:

I haven't found any information about negative AutoGather though. If it worked the idea would be possible to realise.

EDIT: It doesn't work in AoM, I suppose neither it does in AoE3.
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