On the Subject of Persia
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:07 pm    Post subject:

Again it is all a problem of mechanics, the bazaar/factory is most possible and does not pose the risk of being to confusing for newcomers. So I return to the question:
What trade we should represent and as what. Also is export able to be produced in the way I proposed, if not what about XP?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:47 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Tofangchi/Jazayerchi: So we are in agreement

I think so. I'll try it like that. Smile

Quote:
Cavalry Archer: Well it feels odd to Five them Cavalry Archers when by 1736 muskets became standard issue among cavalry. My solution would be to make both, Cavalry Archers as anti-cav and a unique Dragoon-like unit which would be anti-inf. Or maybe just replace Cavalry Archer with Dragoon, though this would be ignoring a lot of history.

Strongly disagreed, cavalry archers continued to be essential, traditional, additional components of Eastern armies. Also 1736 is already 18th century and thus a fairly progressed age within NE's timeline. Wink

Quote:
If you'd like to have few Bazaars, then it wouldn't be a problem for every Bazaar to be controlled separately. With more Bazaars I'd go for Shrine model and set all the Bazaars to produce the same resource. Trickles seem less of a solution to me, as they work even after the Bazaar is destroyed.

Good point about the difference between shrines and factories. I almost forgot about that. So shrine functionality is what I want (with limit ofc). I'll have to see though if I can combine it with the Market exchange buttons. For sure I'd try to model the resources after typical Persian trades.
Quote:
If you're looking for interesting techs or HC cards, I'd recommend a tech allowing you to chose between:
A) Trickle of food + coin gathering bonus (for all sources) + wood shipment
B) Trickle of wood + food gathering bonus (for all sources) + coin shipment
C) Trickle of coin + wood gathering bonus (for all sources) + food shipment

Yes, I agree a HC card would be the more appropriate way of providing something as powerful. Having to enable a card in the deck via tech could be possible, but I never tried since it has the potential to confuse players (just think of Polish Age-Up). However, if these 3 cards would be sort of essential to Persian gameplay, it could be a nice thing to discover. I also think we internally have ideas for 2 trickle cards.
Quote:
And a weird idea: how about a trade unit? A Caravan producing gold while assigned to e.g. Trade Post? Or increasing your income from Trading Posts while located near one?

The code for Trade Routes upgrades can not be connected with unit abilities in such a way. You could assign a resource to TPs and make only the Persian settler be able to gather from it, but I'm not sure how the AI will handle it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:44 pm    Post subject:

Oh, I completely forgot about the AI...

@HC and techs: it may be done the other way - HC card enables a tech. If both are needed to get the reward the order makes little difference.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:55 pm    Post subject:

Cavalry Archers: I suppose one good solution would be to make Persia have Cavalry Archers but give them an Age IV tech/homecity card to make Cavalry Archers into Dragoons...maybe.

Bazzar: So what trades ought to be represented?

It is good to see us in agreement in most areas, may I ask, Do you already have a unit roster for Persia?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:32 am    Post subject:

Quote:
@HC and techs: it may be done the other way - HC card enables a tech. If both are needed to get the reward the order makes little difference.

Why making it harder than necessary? Either a direct tech or a direct card. I don't see much use in delaying. Why reserve a deck slot just to enable another tech with an impact on Persian eco that is likely essential, but that yet has to be paid for as well? Not really appealing.

Quote:
Cavalry Archers: I suppose one good solution would be to make Persia have Cavalry Archers but give them an Age IV tech/homecity card to make Cavalry Archers into Dragoons...maybe.

No way. Persia is famed for its Cavalry Archers since the ancient times. You also oversee the gameplay thrill that lies in only playing with Cavalry Archers without any Dragoons. Not giving every civ the access to everything is a usual way to create special gameplay, since you need to adjust your playstyle to that. So there's nothing that needs to be resolved.
Quote:
Bazzar: So what trades ought to be represented?

That's cosmetics in the end. Your ideas look good to me with spices and carpets. If they would however have to represent the 3 major resources, I'm yet not sure how to assign these to which typical Persian trade assets.

Quote:
It is good to see us in agreement in most areas, may I ask, Do you already have a unit roster for Persia?

Sure, what else do you need to know?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:40 am    Post subject:

Cavalry Archers: I suppose so...

Bazzar: I still think my original layout could work for resources:
Spices-Food
Teak-Wood
Carpets-Gold

May I ask what the unit roster is, or is that pushing it?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:24 pm    Post subject:

Trades
Hm yeah, not so sure about the Teak actually, you did mention yourself why it's not the best choice. I may have to contact my Persian advisors for that. Mr. Green We may also use other wording here. It doesn't need to be called after the good you're trying to sell, but you could also just display the resource you're intending to acquire. Alternatively I could also imagine picking a trade route, referring to the several Persian historical trade routes which then could get any resource assigned. Once again, something I barely know anything about, but my advisors surely will.

Bazaar
Introducing the Bazaar would have a serious balance impact on the muslim civs for which we previously sketched the Bazaar as only a visual alteration of the market. We won't drop that visual idea, because we like it very much. However, civs like the Ottomans and Indians would also be affected by this. So if we actually turn the Bazaar into a Market with Shrine-like trickles, the fundamental eco balance of the 3 mentioned civs would need to be revised for sure.

Unit Roster
No problem, I can just provide the current WIP:

Castle ("Dezh"): Jazayerchi, Toop, Petard
Stable: Qizilbash (maybe Savar RG), Camel Rider, Cavalry Archer (maybe Kamandar RG), Zamburak (maybe), possibly a Elephant unit somewhere (Stable, Dezh, HC, ..)
Barracks: Piyadegan/Shamshirzan, Archer (Qurchi RG), Tofangdar
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:56 pm    Post subject:

I'm still thinking about the Bazaar. I simply love economy and technologies in RTS gameplay. I've been thinking about total conversion mod to make the economy shine but then I realised it would need rewriting the AI - something I have no idea about (my sehr schlecht Deutsch gag goes here).

I got inspired by AoE (yes, the 1996 one, I still play it from time to time) and its Merchant Ships. What do you think about constantly exchanging one resource for more of another one? I wanted to achieve this with negative trickles but they don't work. I don't know if the tactics can affect resource amounts directly or research techs (which can do so) but doing so repetitively would do the trick. It would be nice if having more Bazaars speeded it up but again my modding knowledge isn't enough to tell if that's possible.

Of course the player could choose among the six possibilities (F>W, F>C, W>C et vice versa), so a whole row would be needed in the GUI.

I don't know if Persians will use export but if they do I'd think about adding a Caravan unit trained in the Bazaar (in limited numbers of course) which researches the usually Market techs and provides the export trickle. This would solve the issues with GUI space.


Off-topic: looking at the Napoleonic Era from the designers' side gives me much inspiration for my own mod. The problem is I would need a whole team of people to help me because I (put an obscene verb of your choice here) with AI and RMS scripting, don't have time to do the modelling (even adjust the existing models) and as a typical Boomer have a rather biased opinion on game balance. What a pity Sad
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:00 am    Post subject:

Trades: Actually choosing a trade route could be good like Silk Road, Indian Ocean Trade, and what not. I know not of balance, but the fact that India and the Ottomans will get the feature definitely may cause problems.

Unit Roster: I'm fine with a Zamburak unit. Why Elephant though, I haven't really heard that many references to elephants in Persian military besides the Old Persian empire, if an Elephant unit is added I would say Mahout probably.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:28 am    Post subject:

Hey guys, sorry it's taken me so long to get around to writing this up, but I have a lot to add with regards to the Persian civ! I've been mulling over some ideas for them since finding out about Napolenic Era so i'll take the opportunity to dump all my ideas down here. I understand a lot of the unit roster etc will essentially be set in stone already, and a lot of the ideas I have will simply be impossible to implement in terms of the game logistics, but hopefully you like some of them and they give you some food for thought. Where values or multipliers are mentioned I have not given exact values as I assume they will be balanced appropriately, and for all theming bonuses or civ ideas they can obviously be implemented in many different ways i.e. HC shipment, technology, age up bonuses, wonders, civ bonus etc). I ask that this be read with an open mind, I have explained each unit independently, but also provided an overview of each unit category and then some general notes too, so some of the ideas will seem imba or OP until the whole thing has been read. Tell me what you think!

Units.

Infantry.

Tofangchi.
Persian musketeer. I agree with making them better than regular musketeers, and leaving the rest of the Persian infantry somewhat weaker to retain their focus as a cavalry civ. Making them into a musketeer/skirmisher hybrid is not something I has considered, and although it could work well I feel that keeping them as a regular-style musketeer and making up for the deficit in their other infantry would be better. I think for these guys maybe a fairly strong melee attack with a higher than usual melee multiplier vs LI would be appropriate seeing as they were armed with sabres. Perhaps a stat line somewhat similar to a Sepoy? Giving them higher armour would be a nice way to make them stand out from the Ashi/Sepoy/Janni line up.

Pikeman.
Persian anti-cav infantry. Making them a step in between a pikeman and a halberdier in terms of their stats like a Rajput could work well. I feel like perhaps also making their melee bonus vs LI higher than usual could be a good thing too. Aside from this a pikeman is a fairly self-explanatory unit.

Ghulam.
I have found quite a few references to this unit in the Persian army being mounted musketeers, but I personally like them as a skirmisher unit. I like the idea of them being a fairly weak skirmisher, to balance them with the rest of their infantry, making their statline in between and archer/crossbowman and a true skirmisher could work. I also like the idea of making their multiplier vs HI slightly lower and their bonus vs LC a bit higher.

With regards to Persian infantry in general.
I realise that the infantry I have outlined above is slightly different to what you have in the unit roster already. I feel that reducing the ability of the Persian infantry to counter HI and increasing their ability to counter LI would go a long way to making them rely on their cavalry more. Having a nice strong musketeer to rely on and average/below average pikemen and skirmishers would balance their infantry nicely. If they are going to be a cavalry focused civ then I feel it would be appropriate that only two of their infantry options be available in Age 2, with the options likely being their pikemen and skirmishers. Making their musketeers only available in Age 3 and up would be a nice way to make the Persians unique, and would also justify their musketeers being as good as they are.


Cavalry.

Camelry.
Hussar equivalent HC. I like the idea of giving them higher hp and armour and less attack than a hussar. Fairly self explanatory unit.

Qizilbash.
I like the idea of making these an Iron Flail/Spahi type lancer. I don't have much to add for these.

Camel Archer.
I really like the idea of making these into a “ranged hussar” type unit with a decent attack and shorter range but higher HP and no multipliers.

Elephant Archer.
I do like the idea of Persians having at least one elephant unit but I was struggling with how to make it unique. I eventually came up with this idea: decent multipliers vs HC, LI, HI and artillery, solid attack and range, but three archers mounted in its howdah can each fire independently of each other (obviously balanced appropriately).

Mounted Pikeman (lancer).
If the Persians are going to be a cavalry civ then they definitely need to have more than just four cavalry units in my opinion. This is an idea for another option for them. They are a mounted pikeman in the sense that they have the same bonuses as pikeman, not lancers. Could be fairly cheap and weak, I dunno. I feel like this would be a nice fresh take on a cavalry unit, completely unique in functionality to the Persians. This unit could be given the name of one or another of the famous Persian cavalry units, but i'm not sure which would suit best.

With regards to Persian cavalry in general:
I really like the idea of the Qizilbash being their age 2 HC and the Camelry being their age 3 HC due to it being an interesting reversal of the norm for other civs. This would also play off the fact that they have access to an age 2 camel archer that functions as a ranged hussar. If they are going to be a cav focused civ then some kind of overall theme for their cavalry would be nice, much like the Sioux with their speed bonus. I like the idea of them having slightly more armour than usual, or in keeping with camels and elephants being notorious for striking terror into infantry formations perhaps an extra slight tilt towards anti-infantry bonuses for their cav would be appropriate.


Artillery.

I do like the idea of Qurchis, but I feel like the Persian artillery can be brought more thematically in line.

Tupchian.
These were artillery men reformed under Abbas. I found a reference to an artillery unit in the Persian army in the 17th century (which I now cannot find unfortunately) using light mortars drawn by horse and mounted on a small, sturdy cart. If these were added, made faster than regular mortars (speed, not ROF-wise), weaker and with a shorter range I feel that it would nicely balance the Persian's anti-building options whilst still remaining a thematic cavalry unit.

Mounted grenadier.
I like these as a concept for a similar reason to the Tupchian: they add some anti-building/anti-HI to the Persian unit roster whilst still keeping with the cavalry focus of the civ. Making these slower than regular cav and perhaps less attack and higher HP than a grenadier would balance them.


Buildings.

Bazaar.
This is the most obvious choice for a unique building for the Persians. I have a great many ideas regarding how they could be implemented so, in no particular order, here they are:
Them containing unique market villager upgrades only available to the Persians.
Making them spawn a caravan upon build/being able to build caravans at the bazaar/getting a caravan with each age up etc.
Making bazaars/caravans increase nearby villager gather rates.
Making bazaars/caravans provide fractional resource trickles of whatever is being gathered near them.
Making bazaars/caravans drop resource crates on a timer/depending on nearby gathered resources.
Caravans could be implemented either as “plain” caravans, and the resource they give you via whichever process is toggled at the bazaar, or by making caravans resource specific (carpets, teak, spices).
Making caravans (carpets, teak, spices) available to purchase for x, y or z, and making them drop a resource crate of 1.?y, 1.?z or 1.?x, respectively when they are sent to a market at least 'x' distance away (the respectively is important here, got this idea from this chat).
Making caravans generate resource trickles based on how far they move, in this case bazaars could provide caravans with a speed boost or something.
Giving them caravan techs.
Bazaars/caravans could provide pop space or increase pop cap.
Bazaars could allow villager garrison.
Bazaars/caravans could provide export/xp trickles.
Caravans (carpets, teak, spices) could 'fatten' like livestock, at which point they can be consumed to drop a resource crate.
With most bazaar/caravan options I feel like the trickles or crates or whatever they could provide should be linked to other resources. For example, a Spice caravan is purchased with food. It then provides a either a trickle or crate of wood. A Teak caravan would do the same but costing wood and giving gold, and Carpets for gold/food. I like this idea as it would make the Persian economy stronger but also harder to manage.

Houses.
In keeping with all of the Asian civs having slight variations on the regular houses I feel like the Persians should also have something a bit different. I was thinking a good idea could be making their houses stronger or cheaper or provide bonus pop space (or some combination of the above) based on how many houses or bazaars are close to them. I feel like this would add flavour to the Persian cavalry focus, providing them with bonus pop space for their cavalry but also hindering them in the sense that their houses would have to be grouped to maximise their potential (and therefore be easy pickings for raiders/anti-building troops). This would also be in keeping with traditional Persian architecture, which sees residential buildings built very closely to protect against desert erosion and to provide more shade.

Consulate.
The Persians were famous for their trade, in particular with the British, Dutch and Portuguese. It would seem to make sense to make these available at the consulate. I think a good fourth civ would be India as, although they fought with the Mughals, they also did have very strong trade ties with them. Consulate armies from India would obviously just be chosen from Indias unit roster, and their consulate techs could be chosen from or similar to the following:
wood trickle, mango grove rickshaw, woodcutting upgrades, reduced wood costs on buildings, multiple house rickshaws, camel upgrades and so on.


Wonders.

Qeysarie Bazaar.
This is an obvious choice given the Persian's unique bazaar building. Whatever the effect of this wonder it would likely be scaled or based of the functions of a normal bazaar obviously. Ships resources (probably export or xp). Some other ideas I had for it were: making it provide a resource trickle based on whatever your opponent's current highest gathered resource is, or boosting the amount you receive in resource crates, doing a crate drop with every age up or with every HC shipment or on a timer, or giving it unique market techs superior to those of even the regular bazaar, or export trickles and so on. Could also contain better caravan upgrades etc. Could ship trading post rickshaws too.
I feel that this wonder should be able to garrison villies, and clearly the Persians having access to more market techs would have to be balanced by weaker home city economy shipments etc. Plenty of scope to make this a very versatile wonder.

Arg-e Bam.
This is a famous citadel in Iran. I think a good way to take this would be to give it a relatively weak attack but a higher defence in exchange. Obviously able to garrison villies and perhaps train infantry. Maybe a big button ability that increases building defence drastically for a short time, or an aura that increases nearby building HP. Once again, plenty of scope to work with, the main concern I have being that it should not end up being a copy of the Agra.

Shah Abbas Caravanserai.
This no longer exists I don't believe, but it was a famous caravanserai of – you guessed it – Shah Abbas. Could ship cav units. This building would be able to train cavalry and could provide unique cavalry upgrades. I like the idea of it being the only building that they can train Mounted Grenadiers/Mounted Pikemen from to balance these units. Obviously it could also have things like a big button that increases one or another of their cav stats for x seconds, or an aura or something.

Jameh Mosque.
This is one of the most famous mosques is Isfahan. It once again provides a lot of scope for it's effects. I personally am a fan of it training imams (either standard or perhaps a imam type unit unique to the Persians). Would also ship imams. These imams could have a build limit instead of costing pop and heal faster than usual. Could have a big button that makes all units nearby imams stronger/faster/tougher/heal much faster etc (or this could be a permanent effect provided to all imams once the wonder is built).

Chehel Sotoun.
This is a palace in Isfahan built by Shah Abbas 2. It could ship some sort of upgrade for the Persian explorer, or one or another of their infantry units. Plenty of scope here too.

With regards to wonders:
I think these are unable to be implemented currently, but I feel a proper Asian civ should have proper Asian wonders. They are at very least fun to discuss. There is a huge amount of great buildings built in Iran before and during the 17th century, any one of these could be used as a wonder in-game.

This is all I have so far, i'm sure I have lots of other ideas for them rattling around so please give me some constructive feedback. I hope at least some of these ideas are of use!
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Ande59
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:17 am    Post subject:

First thing's first. I'm going to be "borrowing" SAOL's greeting: Hello, and welcome to the forums! (Apologies, SAOL) lol

I quite like your ideas, and the points you raise about Persia being a cavalry-heavy civ, but I'm not the guy you're looking for. Neutral Sorry.

I especially like your wonder ideas, but I think Persians won't be having wonders. That was actually a question I asked about Persia a while back.

Link:

I say think because the NE team might have actually changed their mind. I wouldn't know.

Another apology (in advance) to Tilanus, if I did the wrong thing by responding first (and/or instead of you). Neutral
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:10 pm    Post subject:

ThisHowdah wrote:
Hey guys, sorry it's taken me so long to get around to writing this up, but I have a lot to add with regards to the Persian civ! I've been mulling over some ideas for them since finding out about Napolenic Era so i'll take the opportunity to dump all my ideas down here. I understand a lot of the unit roster etc will essentially be set in stone already, and a lot of the ideas I have will simply be impossible to implement in terms of the game logistics, but hopefully you like some of them and they give you some food for thought. Where values or multipliers are mentioned I have not given exact values as I assume they will be balanced appropriately, and for all theming bonuses or civ ideas they can obviously be implemented in many different ways i.e. HC shipment, technology, age up bonuses, wonders, civ bonus etc). I ask that this be read with an open mind, I have explained each unit independently, but also provided an overview of each unit category and then some general notes too, so some of the ideas will seem imba or OP until the whole thing has been read. Tell me what you think!


Thanks a lot for respecting that a multitude of decisions has already been made before your arrival. Reasonable approach. I think you will then not be utterly disappointed that my answers did not always turn out as lengthy as the description of your ideas. Wink

Quote:
Units.

Infantry.

Tofangchi.
Persian musketeer. I agree with making them better than regular musketeers, and leaving the rest of the Persian infantry somewhat weaker to retain their focus as a cavalry civ. Making them into a musketeer/skirmisher hybrid is not something I has considered, and although it could work well I feel that keeping them as a regular-style musketeer and making up for the deficit in their other infantry would be better. I think for these guys maybe a fairly strong melee attack with a higher than usual melee multiplier vs LI would be appropriate seeing as they were armed with sabres. Perhaps a stat line somewhat similar to a Sepoy? Giving them higher armour would be a nice way to make them stand out from the Ashi/Sepoy/Janni line up.

While they surely could have higher melee resistance, I don't see why they should have that in first place. Maybe you've mistaken the design idea behind them when speaking of a musk-skirm hybrid. They actually do counter HI in melee and cav in range, since a) historically they didn't use bayonets and b) it's an existing concept that has already proven popular with the Fusilier unit.

Quote:
Pikeman.
Persian anti-cav infantry. Making them a step in between a pikeman and a halberdier in terms of their stats like a Rajput could work well. I feel like perhaps also making their melee bonus vs LI higher than usual could be a good thing too. Aside from this a pikeman is a fairly self-explanatory unit.

Persians won't get Pikemen in order create an artifical downside and stress the importance and reliance on cavalry in return.


Quote:
Ghulam.
I have found quite a few references to this unit in the Persian army being mounted musketeers, but I personally like them as a skirmisher unit. I like the idea of them being a fairly weak skirmisher, to balance them with the rest of their infantry, making their statline in between and archer/crossbowman and a true skirmisher could work. I also like the idea of making their multiplier vs HI slightly lower and their bonus vs LC a bit higher.

Many debates were lead about this unit internally and in the end we agreed on the cavalry role.

Quote:
With regards to Persian infantry in general.
I realise that the infantry I have outlined above is slightly different to what you have in the unit roster already. I feel that reducing the ability of the Persian infantry to counter HI and increasing their ability to counter LI would go a long way to making them rely on their cavalry more. Having a nice strong musketeer to rely on and average/below average pikemen and skirmishers would balance their infantry nicely. If they are going to be a cavalry focused civ then I feel it would be appropriate that only two of their infantry options be available in Age 2, with the options likely being their pikemen and skirmishers. Making their musketeers only available in Age 3 and up would be a nice way to make the Persians unique, and would also justify their musketeers being as good as they are.

Actually your idea is not too different from the one I'm going to realize. It just differs in technical details, but we both intend to make cavalry the central element of Persian military gameplay. I disagree with a greater focus on countering LI, since LI is rare and not that hard to deal with (but btw Tofangdaran counter LI also at range). Persian infantry does have the capabilities to fight off both HC and LC, it only does so in a different manner than usual that isn't less useful once mastered. Persian infantry is best at countering cav at range, while the Persian cav is perfectly capable at both. Persian inf is fine as it's planned now, I'm sure you'll agree once you see how well they complement each other.
Persia has like 2-3 infantry units that are - in principle - able to deal pretty well with all types of units. The hitpoints, availability and pricing of each of these units is designed in a way though, that "infantry only" strategies will quickly come to an end once more infantry-focused civs field more cost-efficient units in greater numbers.

Quote:
Cavalry.

Camelry.
Hussar equivalent HC. I like the idea of giving them higher hp and armour and less attack than a hussar. Fairly self explanatory unit.

As I find skin and string alterations without parallel stat changes pretty pointless - and because I'm also an AoE veteran - I did make Camel Riders hussar equivalents, but gave them a nice spin that will European civs reconsider hussar-camel skirmishes twice. Wink

Quote:
Qizilbash.
I like the idea of making these an Iron Flail/Spahi type lancer. I don't have much to add for these.

That's not the idea we have for them though. See "Mounted Pikeman".

Quote:
Camel Archer.
I really like the idea of making these into a “ranged hussar” type unit with a decent attack and shorter range but higher HP and no multipliers.

It's technically not possible yet to make riders fire from camels. Zamburaks do not count since their armament can not be altered. Persians have also utilized horses since ancient times for mounted archery. So a camel archer lacks historical backing.

Quote:
Elephant Archer.
I do like the idea of Persians having at least one elephant unit but I was struggling with how to make it unique. I eventually came up with this idea: decent multipliers vs HC, LI, HI and artillery, solid attack and range, but three archers mounted in its howdah can each fire independently of each other (obviously balanced appropriately).

Rather an Indian thing.

Quote:
Mounted Pikeman (lancer).
If the Persians are going to be a cavalry civ then they definitely need to have more than just four cavalry units in my opinion. This is an idea for another option for them. They are a mounted pikeman in the sense that they have the same bonuses as pikeman, not lancers. Could be fairly cheap and weak, I dunno. I feel like this would be a nice fresh take on a cavalry unit, completely unique in functionality to the Persians. This unit could be given the name of one or another of the famous Persian cavalry units, but i'm not sure which would suit best.

Sorry, but how are 4 cavalry units too few?? Most civs have only 2 and can do pretty well in cavalry still. The Persian "lancer" will be the Qizilbash which is a cost-efficient modification of the Uhlan with no boni but increased attack range for melee and siege. A mounted pikeman as you propose it is surely an interesting concept, but it doesn't blend well with the game's counter system that defines ranged cavalry - that Persia can't do without in their unit roster - as cavalry counters. From a perspective of realism lances are as deadly for cavalry as for infantry. I will keep your suggestion in mind though, I still like it. Smile

Quote:
With regards to Persian cavalry in general:
I really like the idea of the Qizilbash being their age 2 HC and the Camelry being their age 3 HC due to it being an interesting reversal of the norm for other civs. This would also play off the fact that they have access to an age 2 camel archer that functions as a ranged hussar. If they are going to be a cav focused civ then some kind of overall theme for their cavalry would be nice, much like the Sioux with their speed bonus. I like the idea of them having slightly more armour than usual, or in keeping with camels and elephants being notorious for striking terror into infantry formations perhaps an extra slight tilt towards anti-infantry bonuses for their cav would be appropriate.

There will be cavalry boni, but I'm not going to reveal them yet. Camels and Qizilbashi are both HC and avl from age 2 btw, just like CAs. So you may argue early availability is an "overall theme" of Persian cav.

Quote:
Artillery.

I do like the idea of Qurchis, but I feel like the Persian artillery can be brought more thematically in line.

Ahem, Qurchis are archers, not artillerymen. ^^

Quote:
Tupchian.
These were artillery men reformed under Abbas. I found a reference to an artillery unit in the Persian army in the 17th century (which I now cannot find unfortunately) using light mortars drawn by horse and mounted on a small, sturdy cart. If these were added, made faster than regular mortars (speed, not ROF-wise), weaker and with a shorter range I feel that it would nicely balance the Persian's anti-building options whilst still remaining a thematic cavalry unit.

They're going to be a variation of Chinese hand mortars.

Quote:
Mounted grenadier.
I like these as a concept for a similar reason to the Tupchian: they add some anti-building/anti-HI to the Persian unit roster whilst still keeping with the cavalry focus of the civ. Making these slower than regular cav and perhaps less attack and higher HP than a grenadier would balance them.

Well, if you refer to the historical Persian Zamburaks as "mounted grenadiers" I can understand how you come to suggest a unit like this. The duplicate name is an unresolved issue yet, but I can promise that this unit is going to be pretty unique. Persian artillery lacks truly heavy artillery and will have a hard time cracking sturdy defenses, but they offer quick and cost-efficient solutions that allow some unique artillery gameplay.


Quote:
Buildings.

Bazaar.
This is the most obvious choice for a unique building for the Persians. I have a great many ideas regarding how they could be implemented so, in no particular order, here they are:
Them containing unique market villager upgrades only available to the Persians.
Making them spawn a caravan upon build/being able to build caravans at the bazaar/getting a caravan with each age up etc.
Making bazaars/caravans increase nearby villager gather rates.
Making bazaars/caravans provide fractional resource trickles of whatever is being gathered near them.
Making bazaars/caravans drop resource crates on a timer/depending on nearby gathered resources.
Caravans could be implemented either as “plain” caravans, and the resource they give you via whichever process is toggled at the bazaar, or by making caravans resource specific (carpets, teak, spices).
Making caravans (carpets, teak, spices) available to purchase for x, y or z, and making them drop a resource crate of 1.?y, 1.?z or 1.?x, respectively when they are sent to a market at least 'x' distance away (the respectively is important here, got this idea from this chat).
Making caravans generate resource trickles based on how far they move, in this case bazaars could provide caravans with a speed boost or something.
Giving them caravan techs.
Bazaars/caravans could provide pop space or increase pop cap.
Bazaars could allow villager garrison.
Bazaars/caravans could provide export/xp trickles.
Caravans (carpets, teak, spices) could 'fatten' like livestock, at which point they can be consumed to drop a resource crate.
With most bazaar/caravan options I feel like the trickles or crates or whatever they could provide should be linked to other resources. For example, a Spice caravan is purchased with food. It then provides a either a trickle or crate of wood. A Teak caravan would do the same but costing wood and giving gold, and Carpets for gold/food. I like this idea as it would make the Persian economy stronger but also harder to manage.


Quote:
Houses.
In keeping with all of the Asian civs having slight variations on the regular houses I feel like the Persians should also have something a bit different. I was thinking a good idea could be making their houses stronger or cheaper or provide bonus pop space (or some combination of the above) based on how many houses or bazaars are close to them. I feel like this would add flavour to the Persian cavalry focus, providing them with bonus pop space for their cavalry but also hindering them in the sense that their houses would have to be grouped to maximise their potential (and therefore be easy pickings for raiders/anti-building troops). This would also be in keeping with traditional Persian architecture, which sees residential buildings built very closely to protect against desert erosion and to provide more shade.

Thanks for pointing out, but I currently don't see a room to make their houses both unique and useful without turning Persians imba in early game. They already have boni that are very powerful right from the start. Houses are a sensitive thing to touch. If anything, I'd rather like them to have a downside that counterbalances another early boni.

Quote:
Consulate.
The Persians were famous for their trade, in particular with the British, Dutch and Portuguese. It would seem to make sense to make these available at the consulate. I think a good fourth civ would be India as, although they fought with the Mughals, they also did have very strong trade ties with them. Consulate armies from India would obviously just be chosen from Indias unit roster, and their consulate techs could be chosen from or similar to the following:
wood trickle, mango grove rickshaw, woodcutting upgrades, reduced wood costs on buildings, multiple house rickshaws, camel upgrades and so on.

I had British, Dutch, French and Spanish in mind. Those were trading partners that had comparably peaceful relations to the Persians unlike the Portuguese, Russians, Ottomans and Indians for example. Also, I think that if you add the spice of Indian eco to the Persian one the whole universe will explode with all sorts of fruits, minerals and woods flying around. It's gonna be massively OP.

Quote:
Wonders.

Qeysarie Bazaar.
This is an obvious choice given the Persian's unique bazaar building. Whatever the effect of this wonder it would likely be scaled or based of the functions of a normal bazaar obviously. Ships resources (probably export or xp). Some other ideas I had for it were: making it provide a resource trickle based on whatever your opponent's current highest gathered resource is, or boosting the amount you receive in resource crates, doing a crate drop with every age up or with every HC shipment or on a timer, or giving it unique market techs superior to those of even the regular bazaar, or export trickles and so on. Could also contain better caravan upgrades etc. Could ship trading post rickshaws too.
I feel that this wonder should be able to garrison villies, and clearly the Persians having access to more market techs would have to be balanced by weaker home city economy shipments etc. Plenty of scope to make this a very versatile wonder.

Arg-e Bam.
This is a famous citadel in Iran. I think a good way to take this would be to give it a relatively weak attack but a higher defence in exchange. Obviously able to garrison villies and perhaps train infantry. Maybe a big button ability that increases building defence drastically for a short time, or an aura that increases nearby building HP. Once again, plenty of scope to work with, the main concern I have being that it should not end up being a copy of the Agra.

Shah Abbas Caravanserai.
This no longer exists I don't believe, but it was a famous caravanserai of – you guessed it – Shah Abbas. Could ship cav units. This building would be able to train cavalry and could provide unique cavalry upgrades. I like the idea of it being the only building that they can train Mounted Grenadiers/Mounted Pikemen from to balance these units. Obviously it could also have things like a big button that increases one or another of their cav stats for x seconds, or an aura or something.

Jameh Mosque.
This is one of the most famous mosques is Isfahan. It once again provides a lot of scope for it's effects. I personally am a fan of it training imams (either standard or perhaps a imam type unit unique to the Persians). Would also ship imams. These imams could have a build limit instead of costing pop and heal faster than usual. Could have a big button that makes all units nearby imams stronger/faster/tougher/heal much faster etc (or this could be a permanent effect provided to all imams once the wonder is built).

Chehel Sotoun.
This is a palace in Isfahan built by Shah Abbas 2. It could ship some sort of upgrade for the Persian explorer, or one or another of their infantry units. Plenty of scope here too.

Thanks for the list! I'll check the later in more detail, cause I'm a bit short on time and would rather leave a few more words on your last two paragraphs.

Quote:
With regards to wonders:
I think these are unable to be implemented currently, but I feel a proper Asian civ should have proper Asian wonders. They are at very least fun to discuss. There is a huge amount of great buildings built in Iran before and during the 17th century, any one of these could be used as a wonder in-game.

This is all I have so far, i'm sure I have lots of other ideas for them rattling around so please give me some constructive feedback. I hope at least some of these ideas are of use!

Ande59 has already shown my original stance towards Persian wonders. That has two major reason: First: It wouldn't work from a technical point of view the same way as it does for TAD civs. Second: Since Persians are located between the Ottomans and Indians the idea was to make them a crossover civ that has some TAD and original AoE3 civ elements.

On the other hand - and that is why I wanted to see your list of buildings - Persia has in its long history accomplished amazing achievements in architecture . Their architectural masterpieces are not less qualified as Wonders than those of the TAD civs. Therefore it'd be a bit of a waste not to feature them adequately. So while I haven't favored any concept for them yet (because I yet lack one), I grew more and more certain that there has to be a feature like this.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:46 am    Post subject:

I will be posting here more this weekend( as I'm a little pressed for time right now) but let me say a couple of things
A.I don't really love the concept of the Camelry, primarily because Persia has such a rich history with horses and to give it a Camel as the standard unit seems odd.
B. Again same goes for the camel archer
C.The Elephant Archer sounds much more Indian than Persian, and really while Persia is famous for elephants ( especially now due to "300") at this time I don't think they'd be used that often...
D. Ok, Tilanus I know you don't want new houses but may I'm just gonna go ahead and say one of my ideas:
Nomad Camp

A combination of Livestock Pen and a semi-house

Essentially the Persians will not get a livestock pen but instead they will have the Nomad Camp which will have a low build limit (maybe 5), allow herdables to fatten (maybe 6 per Camp), and provide a little pop (like maybe 3 or 5). Also some minor upgrades for herdable and hunting rates, or possible cavalry instead, will be available here

The idea may be a little OP or just not original but I thought it could be an interesting concept


Ok and to quickly answer these
Quote:
- Politicians & Age up (possibly considering a "soft" usage of Persian "wonders")
- Alternative consulate (probably like the US one that works without Import)
- Persian equivalent to the western University and elite units
- Hypothetical Persian revolution. Since Persia is the melting pot of Asian and European civs, they might get a special revolution. What should it look like?
- Fate of Zamburaks. While I already favored the partyzant-like model we agreed on also for the Jazayerchi, I feel that a clear decision is missing regarding fate of the Indian "duplicate". I considered renaming the Indian ones, but haven't received any qualified feedback on this plan yet.

1. You decide here if you want Politicians (which I think that maybe Shah's and their advisers could be used) or Wonders( of which there is now a pretty good list)
2.This one is tough as many words like Caravanserai and Bazaar are already taken and I cannot find much on the matter
3. Could the term Madrasa work?
4.This is just a quick idea but how about if you rebel you can choose the Durrani Empire or Zand since they kinda split Persia?
5. I actually have a different idea for India, which I will post on later, (though it is more for NE 3) so my current(less radical) idea is to rename the Indian Zamburak to Jezail and make it more Dragoon like.

Also I apologize if this post is entirely incoherent but it should provide some early help.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:07 am    Post subject:

Orwell wrote:
I will be posting here more this weekend( as I'm a little pressed for time right now) but let me say a couple of things
A.I don't really love the concept of the Camelry, primarily because Persia has such a rich history with horses and to give it a Camel as the standard unit seems odd.

It's not the only standard cavalry, cavalry archers and Qizilbashiha use horses. Wink

Quote:
B. Again same goes for the camel archer

That's why I rejected the idea.

Quote:
C.The Elephant Archer sounds much more Indian than Persian, and really while Persia is famous for elephants ( especially now due to "300") at this time I don't think they'd be used that often...

Yes, Persian war elephants are more of an ancient phenomenon.
Quote:
D. Ok, Tilanus I know you don't want new houses but may I'm just gonna go ahead and say one of my ideas:
Nomad Camp

A combination of Livestock Pen and a semi-house

Essentially the Persians will not get a livestock pen but instead they will have the Nomad Camp which will have a low build limit (maybe 5), allow herdables to fatten (maybe 6 per Camp), and provide a little pop (like maybe 3 or 5). Also some minor upgrades for herdable and hunting rates, or possible cavalry instead, will be available here

The idea may be a little OP or just not original but I thought it could be an interesting concept


The idea is a bit redundant considering the Chinese Village:
http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Village_(Age_of_Empires_III)

You may of course plead for giving it the Persians too with new visuals and slightly differed functions, which is not too weird. Villages may indeed be better than houses, since Persia has always relied on the power of various tribes. So it could play a defensive role (as the Chinese village can do as well), but I wouldn't make it let's say a replacement for barracks and stables, maybe just an addition.

Quote:
1. You decide here if you want Politicians (which I think that maybe Shah's and their advisers could be used) or Wonders( of which there is now a pretty good list)

We'll go for politicians and continue to consider how single Persian buildings could be utilized in gameplay.

Quote:
2.This one is tough as many words like Caravanserai and Bazaar are already taken and I cannot find much on the matter

Well, the question was not about the name for a new consulate, but rather the content it should offer.

Quote:
3. Could the term Madrasa work?

Yes, we already decided to use that term internally. This question also focuses on the to-be-offered content though.

Quote:
4.This is just a quick idea but how about if you rebel you can choose the Durrani Empire or Zand since they kinda split Persia?

We've had a couple of ideas for Persian revolutions already. Yes, we even thought about offering various revolutions at different ages. I refrain from that idea though, because the different dynasties were not too different from each other if you ignore the ethnic/tribal differences. Coups are actually a persistent part of Persian history, they're not exceptional. Furthermore the different tribes that took over were in most cases originally servants of the former dynasty in power. The Hotakids and Durranis being the only major exceptions. Safavids, Afsharids, Zandians and Qajars were different but not enemies per se. It was rather dependent on the individual political cases whether there was war between them or not.

These coups also occured so often, because the ruling dynasties were very much focused on its actual political leaders. For example, the Afsharids left a power vacuum after the death of Nader Shah which they were unable to fill themselves and left the gates open for the Durranis, who then again were opposed by Karim Khan who is the personification of the Zandian rule. It may be a weird comparison on first sight, but I don't see the Safavids, Afsharids, Zandians and Qajars as occuping powers of Persia, but rather like the noble families of ancient Rome that always co-existed and would interchangeably (or in the Persian case: successively) get access to power and therefore rule.

Quote:
5. I actually have a different idea for India, which I will post on later, (though it is more for NE 3) so my current(less radical) idea is to rename the Indian Zamburak to Jezail and make it more Dragoon like.

Once again, the Jezail is an Afghan rifle invented at the 2nd half of the 19th century and is therefore out of timeline. We intend to rename the Indian Zamburak too, options are:
  • Zumbooruk (alternative spelling)
  • Shaturnal Gunner (from ETW)
  • Camel Gunner
  • Camel Musketeer
  • Camel Cannoneer
  • Cameleer
  • Swivel Gunner

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:49 am    Post subject:

A. I meant like the Chinese Village, and I of course would not want it to replace the Stable, I just thought maybe with a HC card (something like "Nomadic Riders") it could have some upgrades to cavalry
B. Are you just gonna use the standard Euro politicians (i.e Quartermaster or Admiral) or do you want historic politicians?
C.Also on buildings, how about instead of Forts from the HC they get Citadels; which have a much higher HP, low attack, and high LOS, and may garrison villagers as well as call a Garrison( Minutemen units).
D.On the Consulate I would say you have two options
1. You make it basically a normal consulate where you may trade with nations like Britain,Spain, the Portuguese , and India
or
2. You allow them to ally with native tribes like the Kurd, Arabs, Turks and what not...I personally prefer this option as it makes them unique ( though still kinda like the US)
E. Sorry but right now I have no ideas for Madrasa techs, do you have any?
F. You are certainly right on how the dynasties worked but to be honest there are no other great options for a unique revolt, especially seeing as how the Anglo-Russian occupation of Persia was later than the timeline...
G.My fault for using wiki as a, source but Shaturnal Gunner sounds fine, though I find no historical reference of it.

Again sorry for the short response, and I would like to ask; Would you be open to a mass renovation of India for use in NE 3?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:05 pm    Post subject:

Orwell wrote:
A. I meant like the Chinese Village, and I of course would not want it to replace the Stable, I just thought maybe with a HC card (something like "Nomadic Riders") it could have some upgrades to cavalry

Replacing the stable was never an option, since we know from Torps that housing space coupled military training facilities makes civs defensive and that's clearly not the idea.

Quote:
B. Are you just gonna use the standard Euro politicians (i.e Quartermaster or Admiral) or do you want historic politicians?

A mix. I've also had the idea to let Persian "politicians" ship/upgrade (buildings to)/enable "wonders". We will use the popular Persian palaces and mosques in the HC though, but there's enough for additional "politician" buildings.

Quote:
C.Also on buildings, how about instead of Forts from the HC they get Citadels; which have a much higher HP, low attack, and high LOS, and may garrison villagers as well as call a Garrison( Minutemen units).

Citadel sounds arbitrary. And I talked about specific single Persian buildings that exist for real.
Quote:
D.On the Consulate I would say you have two options
1. You make it basically a normal consulate where you may trade with nations like Britain,Spain, the Portuguese , and India
or
2. You allow them to ally with native tribes like the Kurd, Arabs, Turks and what not...I personally prefer this option as it makes them unique ( though still kinda like the US)

With what units please? No consulate options without content ideas. Razz I have no problem with making it functionally equal to the US consulate, because we won't use an export-based TAD consulate. The functionality may be different though. Maybe it can be combined with the village. Smile

Quote:
E. Sorry but right now I have no ideas for Madrasa techs, do you have any?

We have, but we need to countercheck a lot with the content that is already in the game. For example, the muslim TAD natives evidently have a lot of islam-themed techs. Also, Indians and Ottomans as well as the new muslim natives of NE have some religiously themed techs. I guess .. a list would be useful..

Quote:
F. You are certainly right on how the dynasties worked but to be honest there are no other great options for a unique revolt, especially seeing as how the Anglo-Russian occupation of Persia was later than the timeline...

Oh, I consider the Afghans a legit option. Yet I have no further ideas..

Quote:
G.My fault for using wiki as a, source but Shaturnal Gunner sounds fine, though I find no historical reference of it.

Lol, we neither really have, which is why I'm not so happy with the term myself. I have trust in the research capabilities of CA, the makers of ETW, which have improved clearly over the last decade.

Quote:
Again sorry for the short response, and I would like to ask; Would you be open to a mass renovation of India for use in NE 3?

Yes, possibly even NE2. Wink
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