On the Subject of Persia
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:40 am    Post subject:

A. It is actually hard to come up with units for the Consulate because often ethnic units, like the Qizilbash or Ghulam, are already taken. So I say just do foreign empires.
B.While the Afghans are an option if we do this I would want to make it focused on the foundation of a new dynasty, but I don't know how to properly represent it.

Is the Persian civ very finished because it feels that way. Also I am going to open a new thread on India... I just wanna ask, is there anything you wanna see in a new India...
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:12 pm    Post subject:

Yes, these were exactly my doubts about featuring ethnic tribes consulate-like. It is, however, still possible. They wouldn't need to offer units themselves, but rather provide unique improvements. Maybe it'd also be possible to switch between the different tribal boni as you do in factories with resources.

Afghans are in a way another more limited version of Persians. The civs are historically similar. Maybe they are better off as natives, idk.

The Qajars suit best as revolution civ among the Persian dynasties. The more I write about this, the more I like the village/tribe idea.

For Indians we mainly want to drop the British company units like Ghurka and Sepoy in exchange for the more archaic units of India.
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Arsalaan
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:57 pm    Post subject:

I have few suggestions for both Indians and Persians. First of all sorry to comment lately and mess around with your already made plans for Persia. My words may sound a bit bossy (as stated by other modders) it's due to my bad language skills, but believe me I always intend to suggest.
I can't figure out what's the point behind making persia a cavalry civil we very well knew that along with Ottomans and Moguls, Safavids were gunpowder civil too. So why not make Persia trade based, semi infantry and cavalry civ with focus on gunpowder. As its going to be a trade based we should find a way to incorporate consulate with market and trading posts. I would make some effort and may come up with some ideas later if you agree on this.
As of now I would like to suggest a unit rooster. As I see Persians as tad-ish civ this rooster contains more units like tad civs.
Infantry:-
Pyadeh or sipahi (whatever you prefer. Both mean same): Basic melee infantry with bonus against cavalry available from age 2.
Qurchi: Very cheap and weak Archer good against light infantry available from age 2.
Tufangchi: Heavy musket infantry with melee and range bonus cavalry available in age 3.
Jazayerchi: Abus gun like infantry with new and long model of gun which has no melee attack and good ranged attack with bonus against infantry available from age 3.
Cavalry
Qizilbash: Not the way you describe. I wish it to be fast and light raiding cavalry with bonus against settlers and infantry.
Savar or savaran: Heavy cavalry equivalent to spahi with great hitpoints and attack without any multiplier.
Zamburak: Same as its with Indians.
Artillery
Grenadier: Same as of vanilla. Safavids and Moguls both used grenade but there is quite little reference to this.
Camel canon: Good fast Cannon mounted on camel while moving making it quick. It has low radius of impact and bonus against buildings. The fact with this unit is that it has to get in bombard mode to attack. I am expecting new model for Cannon and a new animation.
Toap: Heavy artillery same as vanilla's factory made.
And for India I think on splitting them in two maybe three faction. One is mysore Kingdom since mode is about napoleon's era and King of mysore had alliance with napoleon. Other faction can be British east India trading. Third can be Mogul empire but this would increase lot of moding burden on you so ditch the third civ. Maybe it can be released in NE 4.0. Again I could assist you with this too if you think it's worth.
Speaking of Afghans it has lot of potential to be in mod if we consider events of 19th century. I would also like to say they are quite different than Persians as their military tactics relied on guerilla warfare, plundering and ambushing.
Sorry for any grammatical or spelling mistakes and also about any missing words as I am posting this from phone.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:48 pm    Post subject:

I'm gonna leave Arsalaan's post for Tilanus.
A.Well Tilanus I like your idea of switching boni for the tribes like perhaps if you choose Turks you get a bonus to cavalry speed, Kurds raise your gathering speed from herdables and huntables, and Arabs well I don't know. The more villages you have, the higher the bonus.
B. The Afghans make a lot of sense for Natives, especially as I see ideas for more Middle Eastern maps coming soon.
C.The Qajars feel a little lates, why not just the Zand or Durrani (the Durrani could give a shipment of Afghan native units)

I'm happy to hear yo like my idea of tribes....also I am now opening a new post.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:26 pm    Post subject:

@Orwell: Qajars are still in NE timeline and perfectly suit for age 4/5.

@Arsalan (one a too much in your name? ^^): I'm going to respond with few words cause I'm also on my mobile.

Compared to the civs already in game, the Persians relied heavily on cav. They do have some infantry that can do well too. They have both archaic and gunpowder units in a relation that suits their history. So it's not like they lack any elements you're afraid they might miss. Wink We did also alteady base major Persian boni on Markets and Trading Posts.

To your unit suggestions I will respond that the Persian unit roster is generally going into the direction you recommend, but is different in detail. That is because of balance issues and for game design reasons such as avoiding obsolete units (i.e. Jazayerchi > Grenadier)
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:41 pm    Post subject:

The Qajars sound good to me and the Mughal thread is about to come up...
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:04 pm    Post subject:

@Arsalaan:
Afghan warfare was ofc not the same as Persian, but they did share a lot of regional elements. But speaking of the differences: What are unique Afghan units and technologies you can suggest? No matter for what (i.e. Natives or Persian revolution civ), but no Jezail rifle please.

Regarding Indians: Splitting them will be very tricky due to the relations between them, kinda like the Holy Roman Empire. Plus in the NE timeline, the many small Indian kingdoms ceased to exist or started out pretty late. I could imagine a muslim Mughal and Hindu/Sikh version though, that "unites" the many states and kingdoms in a way similar to Italians and Germans.

Qurchis will base on archers and act like a mix of xbow and skirm.
Tofangdaran counter cav at range while Piyadegan do that - as Persian sentries, not as regular pikemen - in melee. Tofangdaran get no melee bonus vs cav bc they dont have bayonets and bc that is an intended downside in both, the unit and the Persian inf.

Jazayerchi, Grenadier, Zamburak and Camel cannon are united in obe unit, the Jazayerchi and Zamburakchi as its upgrade. Rides on horse/camel, dismounts to fire and has splash dmg. It can also fire while mounted, but only after the Zamburakchiha upgrade. The Indian Zamburak is also not artillery, but a dragoon, which is why I didn't give the Persians this unit, but gave them a real new, artillery Zamburak instead. Wink Since it does siege dmg it needs no further boni vs. Infantry. I disagree with bonus vs building which it never had from a historical point of view. The Toop (why 'Toap'?) will be anti-artillery and anti-building. As you can also see in this thread - if you would have read it fully first before posting - that I intend to rename the Indian Zamburak in favor of the new Persian unit.
Heavy artillery like the 'Heavy Cannon' can be acquired through consulate and homecity and Rockets possibly through a British factory.

The Qizilbash doesn't need a bonus against villagers and buildings, since its base stats are already designed in a way that benefits them when they attack these targets.
There will be 2 types of Savaran. The royal upgrade for the regular Qizilbashiha and another Spahi-like 'Royal Savar'.
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Arsalaan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:25 pm    Post subject:

Jezail rifleman was my only card for Afghan infantry. Maybe after some research I would find few generic name for troops and technologies. Till then let's discuss about Persians and Indians.
I don't think splitting Indian civs on basis of religion would be right. I splitted them on basis with their foreign relation with napoleon. That's the reason why I suggested mysore empire and east India company. And I also don't think to give mysore empire and east India company same age up system as of Moguls. So what to do with current Indian age up system? So let basic Indian civ be in game with old content and few new replacements.
I am fine with your plan about qurchi and tofangdar.
Sorry being less descriptive on jazayerchi. I wished jazayerchi to be unit with skirmisher like pros and cons of artillery making them a unique unit by that I mean jazayerchi can be like most fatal skirmisher like unit with high attack and high range(very high) and to overcome on that I want them to have no melee attack and negative bonus against buildings and this is reason to have Grenadier which deals area damage and has bonus against buildings. If no normal zamburak for Persians what will be anticavalry cavalry unit?
Once again I am fine with Qizilbash and savar.
P.S: toap because it's pronounced that way.
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