On the Subject of the Mughals
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:02 pm    Post subject: On the Subject of the Mughals

Welcome to the Land of the Mughals

The Rulers and the Capital

Ruler:
A. Akbar, the current ruler, he is the most famous of the options and is famed as one of the greatest leaders of the Mughal Empire. My personal choice. But just in case you really want to change leaders, here are some other options.
B. Babur, the founder of the Mughal Empire and also an elephant, famed for his role in founding the Mughal Empire and the Battle of Panipat.
C. Aurangzeb, the sixth emperor of the Mughal Empire, famed for his expansion of the empire and his relations with the British.

Capital:
I only see one option here and that is Agra, the traditional capital of the Mughal Empire.

Units

Brahmin Arrow Mogul: First of let me go ahead and say that I know traditionally should be a monk, but considering this is a Muslim-empire I'm not sure that fits. Anyway, the Mogul will be a elephant-howdah explorer and will have an aura that makes allied units stronger around him, he will still have the stomp ability.

Sepoy Arrow Tofangchi: The Persian gunpowder troops and the Mughal are very similar and so they could just use the same unit though if you don't mind.

Ghurka Arrow Tir-Andaz: Yes that does just mean "arrow-throwers" but I am limited on sources for Mughal Infantry, but the archers of the Mughals could easily be used as a new skirmisher unit. In-game would be a light, fast archer unit who would act as a skirmisher.

Rajput Arrow Barchhah: Just a normal spearman, I removed the Rajput as they were traditionally enemies of the Mughals but perhaps they can be shipped from the HC. In-game would be a spearman that would have good hand armor and a good attack.

Sowar Arrow Ahadis: The royal lancers, the gentleman cavalry. These troops will be armed with a lance and covered in chainmail. In-game would be a fast, medium armored cavalry with heavy costs to build.

Zamburak Arrow Kaman Rider: Literaly meaning " Bow riders", these would be horse archers wearing chainmail and using a variant of recurve bow . These would be a good ranged cavalry unit that would be expensive to build and move slower than the original Zamburak

Mahout Arrow Mahout(changed): The Mahout will stay but change. It will now be uber-expensive ( as in 900 food and 600 gold), slow, but have an ultra-powerful attack as well as high HP. Also if possible enemy units around the Mahout will have a negative combat modifier.

Flail Elephant Arrow Removed

Howdah Arrow Howdah(changed): Again uber-expensive unit, slow, but tough to kill. Also change the Musketeer in the howdah to a bowman.

Siege Elephant Arrow Farsakh Cannon: Essentially a Lil Bombard (but retextured) pulled by an elephant. Again uber-expensive and slow but has a very powerful siege attack.

HC Units:
Rajputs
Urumi
As well as Natives (Afghans, Sufi, and Bhakti)

So as you can see they will be a unique army similar in a way to the Persians but are very different from them in their uber-expensive troops and not as heavy use of gunpowder. I will continue to edit this post after feedback discussing buildings and boni.

Sources:
https://goo.gl/dym6Xt
https://goo.gl/WGulc9
Sorry for using so few sources and such terrible ones at that but few good ones are available.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: On the Subject of the Mughals

Orwell wrote:
Welcome to the Land of the Mughals

The Rulers and the Capital

Ruler:
A. Akbar, the current ruler, he is the most famous of the options and is famed as one of the greatest leaders of the Mughal Empire. My personal choice. But just in case you really want to change leaders, here are some other options.
B. Babur, the founder of the Mughal Empire and also an elephant, famed for his role in founding the Mughal Empire and the Battle of Panipat.
C. Aurangzeb, the sixth emperor of the Mughal Empire, famed for his expansion of the empire and his relations with the British.

Capital:
I only see one option here and that is Agra, the traditional capital of the Mughal Empire.

Currently I also prefer Akbar, but let's see what insights further research can provide. As for the capital, the mughals did actually retreat to the city of Delhi in their period of downfall. Agra is still prominently represented through the Agra fort.
Quote:
Units

Brahmin Arrow Mogul: First of let me go ahead and say that I know traditionally should be a monk, but considering this is a Muslim-empire I'm not sure that fits. Anyway, the Mogul will be a elephant-howdah explorer and will have an aura that makes allied units stronger around him, he will still have the stomp ability.

A mogul is not really an equivalent choice for a religiously based authority of muslims. Wink
Quote:
Sepoy Arrow Tofangchi: The Persian gunpowder troops and the Mughal are very similar and so they could just use the same unit though if you don't mind.

Ghurka Arrow Tir-Andaz: Yes that does just mean "arrow-throwers" but I am limited on sources for Mughal Infantry, but the archers of the Mughals could easily be used as a new skirmisher unit. In-game would be a light, fast archer unit who would act as a skirmisher.

We'll get rid of the British themed Gurkha and Sepoy and replace them with more native equivalent. We did indeed plan to replace the Gurkha through the same archer that the Persians get.

Quote:
Rajput Arrow Barchhah: Just a normal spearman, I removed the Rajput as they were traditionally enemies of the Mughals but perhaps they can be shipped from the HC. In-game would be a spearman that would have good hand armor and a good attack.

I'd support a partition of the Indian faction into Muslim and Hindu, even though this will most likely result in conflicts regarding hardcoded features such as the wonders. Could you provide your source for the Barchhah?

Quote:
Sowar Arrow Ahadis: The royal lancers, the gentleman cavalry. These troops will be armed with a lance and covered in chainmail. In-game would be a fast, medium armored cavalry with heavy costs to build.

What should happen to the Sowar?

Quote:
Zamburak Arrow Kaman Rider: Literaly meaning " Bow riders", these would be horse archers wearing chainmail and using a variant of recurve bow . These would be a good ranged cavalry unit that would be expensive to build and move slower than the original Zamburak

Source? Indians used Zamburaks too btw. So at least one of the Indian factions should have them.

Quote:
Mahout Arrow Mahout(changed): The Mahout will stay but change. It will now be uber-expensive ( as in 900 food and 600 gold), slow, but have an ultra-powerful attack as well as high HP. Also if possible enemy units around the Mahout will have a negative combat modifier.

Flail Elephant Arrow Removed

Howdah Arrow Howdah(changed): Again uber-expensive unit, slow, but tough to kill. Also change the Musketeer in the howdah to a bowman.

Siege Elephant Arrow Farsakh Cannon: Essentially a Lil Bombard (but retextured) pulled by an elephant. Again uber-expensive and slow but has a very powerful siege attack.

I don't understand enough of Elephants yet to give proper feedback on these suggestions. I can imagine though that the boosts you have in mind

Quote:
So as you can see they will be a unique army similar in a way to the Persians but are very different from them in their uber-expensive troops and not as heavy use of gunpowder. I will continue to edit this post after feedback discussing buildings and boni.

Actually I don't see that Razz And I wouldn't like that anyway.

Quote:
Sources:
https://goo.gl/dym6Xt
https://goo.gl/WGulc9
Sorry for using so few sources and such terrible ones at that but few good ones are available.

Pics would be good too. Razz
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:59 pm    Post subject:

Sepoy is not British themed. Sepoys were employed before British arrival in India.
Gurkha can be replaced because they were British troops. Tirandaz is good replacement for gurkha. Jingal can be possible replacement too.
Rajput can better be a native unit despite of their military services in mughal army. Barchah means spear. We need better name for spearman.
Sowar means mounted meaning mounted soldier in game. Ahadi can be good addition making it humare like and turning Sowar into Lancer like.
No need to change zamburak because mughals introduced them to India.
There no such thing as Mahout in military field. Mahout generally means rider of elephant.
Why remove flail elephant?
Howdah can be kicked too because they weren't used much by mughals except for hunting purposes. They were used by carnatic nawabs. Better put howdah with war elephant (native unit).
Siege elephant can renamed hathnal and used against infantry rather than buildings.
Farsakh Cannon can be vital addition as there is no building demolished unit.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:04 pm    Post subject:

The term Sepoy existed before the British, but the British made it "popular". Also, the visuals of the AoE3 Sepoy doesn't look really native. These look like native Indian musketeers:
http://imgur.com/F3JKmoF
http://imgur.com/9sBd4RX
http://imgur.com/lKgQOqm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_Mughal_Infantryman.jpg

Also, the Sepoys in AoE3 are ridiculously strong. It's a bit weird considering they were only a support force for the cavalry and not like for the many European armies the backbone. So I'd like to change the stats and visuals of the Sepoy and therefore prefer to go with another term.

I've just had a quick look at this wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_artillery

These giant artilleries were never really practicable. They're more a demonstration of power. I'd say Indians could get a few restyled Ottoman Bombards from HC and such to reflect that, but we shouldn't pretend these were used for real with great effect. Smaller guns in greater numbers always proved as the better artillery strategy in all armies of that time.

If the wiki article is correct, Indians should have a wide access to artillery troops (incl. Grenadiers, Mortars, Horse Artillery) without becoming a superior artillery civ though due to the lack of technological progress over the ages. I finally see a first source for the Shaturnal or Shutarnal term for "Camel Guns", which I might use for the Indian Zamburak in order to avoid confusion with the new Persian Zamburakchi unit. Nice. Cool

I know that horses were the backbone of the Mughal army, still, Elephants are unique to Indians and if I understood you correctly, you're not voting for splitting the Indian faction. So that means that the Nawabs and their Elephants must have their place in the Indian civ. I also feel that BHG exaggerated with the amount of Elephant units for India. I agree that we can kick a few of them in favor of horse riders such as Ahadis, Pindari and Cavalry Archers.
Should the Sowar be a horse unit in first place or would it be okay to upgrade Sowars into horse riding Ahadis? ^^ I personally see a bit of a problem there regarding visual consistency.

Do you have any illustrations of the Tirandaz or Jingal? Singular and plural form would also be good.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:26 am    Post subject:

A. I figured Akbar would stay, but I would say Agra is still the better option though Delhi may stay still.
B.I know a Mogul is in no way a religious authority for Muslims but I could find no suitable alternative.
C. Barchhah just means "spear" ,as Arsalaan said,but it is the best name I could find.
D. The Sowar may find a new home or be another melee cavalry for the Mughals or the new Hindu faction, I just thought that the Ahadis deserve recognition.
E. The Zamburaks are actually fine as Shaturnal Gunners, I just really wrote that in case you wanted a full overhaul of the Mughals.
F. The Elephants are a tricky beast to handle and think someone better qualified than me should handle them.
G. I think India should have a variety of artillery units but mentioned the Farsach Gun as an example and a good replacement for a heavy siege unit, though your criticism is accurate.

Also I do support the splitting of India into two factions I believe the Mughals and Maratha would be the best choices here.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:08 pm    Post subject:

It would be better if you Google jingal. Jingal is quite popular.
For tirandaz you have to rely on local source. And that's me.
Current sepoy can reskined as you said.
Giant artillery were used but quite rare. They were mostly stationed in forts.
Ahadi can be upgrade for sowar as you stated.
I am voting for splitting of India but not in your manner. I wish to split India on basis of events of early 19 and late 18 century. That means one faction can be east India company which had true power in India other faction can be opposer of East India company that are wadiyar dynasty special under rule of Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan. And let mughals be in-game because ensemble added them.
About elephant I meant howdah could be given to sufi natives and let mughals get war elephant. Remove mahout as there is no such thing.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:13 pm    Post subject:

It might be smart to consider Aurangzeb (or Alamgir) as a new AI char when redesigning the flag and the civ to show that the civ has changed significantly.

Also, I have changed my mind in regards to splitting the civ into 2 factions. Akbar in particular turned into an advocator of religious freedom. Aurangzeb, even though disadvantaging non-muslims during his reign, did not chase down Hindus, but on the contrary did still feel obliged to guard their temples. So I'd rather vote for a clearer separation of the religions and numerous Indian states within the civ in the shape of new consulate options or revolution-like features.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:23 pm    Post subject:

Splitting the Indian faction in two new ones grants obvious difficulties. Just look at the wonders. Some of them are clearly Mughal ones, other are Hindu. Also Muslims and Hindus co-existed there both under the Mughal Empire, Maratha Empire and British Raj. So no need to look for an alternative explorer, flag or leader IMO.
As for their military units, replace the Gurkha with the archer, and change the stats of the Sepoy. Regarding their stable, I think replacing the Sowar with the Persian Camel Rider and introducing the Ahadis as a lancer could do the job. The name "Sowar" could do as a RG for the Indian Camel Rider. Also rename Zamburak to Shaturnal Gunner and the stable is done.
Regarding their artillery, except those large bombards, Indians also used rocket troops. But there's no need to give them very powerful artillery when the elephants could do the job.
I think there's no need to dismiss any elephant unit or at least keep most of them. Where? At a new building called: Royal Elephants Kraal. If you could re-texture the Age 4 Aztec Market, I think it would look perfect. Or you could go even further, by granting this building the ability to train banner armies (an elephant unit + another Indian unit) like the German Reichstag. So you could use the historical flags of the Mughals, Marathas, Mysore, Bengali ect. After all, like NE Germany, it represents a group of states.

There can be many solutions to represent India in NE

Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:04 pm    Post subject:

I am quite satisfied with firestorm's suggestion regarding banner armies.
@firestorm
Sowar cannot be royal upgrade since it's not the term which grants supremacy over any other riders. Rockets were used by mysore Kingdom not mughals so they can be like mercenary for Indian civ just like arsonist. And I liked your suggestion for new building for elephant units.
@Peter
No newly formed Indian Kingdom during mughal rule was outcome of revolution except Maratha Kingdom. So I think we should go with
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:21 pm    Post subject:

@Arsalaan

I think you didn't understood. My concept about NE India is not just the Mughal Empire. Ok, this is the major faction but it does not mean that NE India can't have units of other Indian kingdoms, including Mysore. At the banner armies the team could make a regiment of Mysore including Rockets and Siege Elephants.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:38 pm    Post subject:

Firestorm wrote:
Splitting the Indian faction in two new ones grants obvious difficulties. Just look at the wonders. Some of them are clearly Mughal ones, other are Hindu. Also Muslims and Hindus co-existed there both under the Mughal Empire, Maratha Empire and British Raj. So no need to look for an alternative explorer, flag or leader IMO.

Yeah, I did revise my idea already. Alternative explorer, flag and leader are still reasonable and necessary changes. First, because there is room for improvements and second to display a major change in the civilization. Changing the label is necessary to indicate differences and changes.

Quote:
As for their military units, replace the Gurkha with the archer, and change the stats of the Sepoy. Regarding their stable, I think replacing the Sowar with the Persian Camel Rider and introducing the Ahadis as a lancer could do the job. The name "Sowar" could do as a RG for the Indian Camel Rider. Also rename Zamburak to Shaturnal Gunner and the stable is done.

Aah, it sounds so easy when you say that, but it isn't. ^^ I'm always eager to get rid of wrong, outdated and distorting elements, but I also try to preserve original units whenever possible. So far there are already massive changes planned for Barracks, Stable and Castle. So I wonder if all of that is really necessary or: what is still worth keeping? Each of these buildings can have 6 units maximum and I'd very much prefer not to max it out.

The original Indian stable is:
  • Sowar (Light Lancer)
  • Mahout Lancer (Heavy Lancer)
  • Howdah (Heavy Pseudo-Dragoon)
  • Zamburak (1 Pop Dragoon)

with 2 Elephants, 2 camels and 0 horses

If I merge all of the present suggestions we'd get something like this:
  • Sowar (Light Camel Lancer) with Ahadi RG (Heavy Horse Lancer)
  • Howdah Arrow Cavalry Archer
  • Mahout Lancer = War Elephant (change name with Sufi)
  • +Camel Rider
  • Elephant Archer (planned, but discarded; maybe better as a merc or native unit)
  • Zamburak = Shutarnal

So I got something like this:
  • Sowar (Light Lancer) with Ahadi RG
  • War Elephant (Heavy Lancer)
  • Cavalry Archer (High ROF dragoon)
  • Shutarnal (1pop Dragoon)
  • Camel Rider (Hussar/Melee Dragoon)

with 1 Elephant, 2.5 camel and 1.5 horse units

I'm still unsatisfied with that constellation for three reasons:
  1. First, because some units are more or less just differently scaled variations of each other. Especially a heavy horse lancer like the Ahadi troubles me.
  2. Second, because 2.5 camels and 1.5 horses look like some inconsistent shit to me. Plus it should have more horses actually.
  3. Third, because it feels overcrowded without providing as much variety as the original stable unit roster did.

Any ideas on how to improve that?

I've considered btw to link Ahadis to Jat Lancers and make them more prominent choices rather than limiting them to HC only. What do you think?

Quote:
Regarding their artillery, except those large bombards, Indians also used rocket troops. But there's no need to give them very powerful artillery when the elephants could do the job.

I'd love Indian Rockets tbh. I find the Indian artillery in AoE3 is too much based on Elephants. Here btw new potential artillery units I noted:
  • Grenadier (probably unique; Golandaz/Degandaz?)
  • Horse Artillery
  • Mortar
  • Mysorean Rocket (Bandar?)


Quote:
I think there's no need to dismiss any elephant unit or at least keep most of them. Where? At a new building called: Royal Elephants Kraal. If you could re-texture the Age 4 Aztec Market, I think it would look perfect. Or you could go even further, by granting this building the ability to train banner armies (an elephant unit + another Indian unit) like the German Reichstag. So you could use the historical flags of the Mughals, Marathas, Mysore, Bengali ect. After all, like NE Germany, it represents a group of states.

There can be many solutions to represent India in NE

Mr. Green

Yes, I brought up the comparison with the HRE myself for a reason. ^^ There's still the issue with obsolete units due to a) the stats that'd be too similar and b) the sheer amount of unique units that India would get. A Kraal would just move all the elephants to a new building, but not reduce the amount of unique units. Maybe, if the Kraal was like the Japanese Dojo it could work. Still, that's just limiting the access, not doing anything about unit count and redundance in principle. I think this needs to be fixed first before we can make up our minds about distribution.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:06 pm    Post subject:

Tilanus, we should not forget that India definitively will be very different to other NE civilizations, like it is on TAD with many unique stuff. So, I don't think we can do much about giving them standart/generic units. They could share some stuff with Persia, like an archer unit, a camel unit, an artillery unit but not very much. Is quite unconventional to upgrade a lancer mounted on camel into a lancer mounted on horse. So, I'm not supporting the Ahadis RG, I rather prefer to give Sowar(Camel Rider) a sword, and make the Ahadis a new unique unit for India. As for their elephants, Mahout, Howdah and Siege Elephants are pretty different to each other, so I suggest just to drop the Flail Elephant and changing the stats of the Mahout (maybe, no more lance) and put them on the Kraal. Regarding their flag,leader and explorer, I don't see any reason to change all them. Let's keep the Brahmin Monks at least.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:28 pm    Post subject:

Firestorm wrote:
Tilanus, we should not forget that India definitively will be very different to other NE civilizations, like it is on TAD with many unique stuff.

Well, the point is that due to India being a TAD civ it already has way more unique units than let's say the civs from AoE3 or NE. So adding more unique units to a civ that has enough of them already is something that bugs me. Especially if it doesn't pay off much.

Quote:
So, I don't think we can do much about giving them standart/generic units.
They could share some stuff with Persia, like an archer unit, a camel unit, an artillery unit but not very much.

I agree.
Quote:
Is quite unconventional to upgrade a lancer mounted on camel into a lancer mounted on horse. So, I'm not supporting the Ahadis RG

I agree.
Quote:
I rather prefer to give Sowar(Camel Rider) a sword, and make the Ahadis a new unique unit for India.

I disagree. Mr. Green

AoE3 Sowars are not NE Camel Riders. Sowars counter inf, camel riders counter heavy cavalry. Although I need to admit their stats are apart from that pretty similar. So, let me modify your suggestion a bit in a way that I can imagine to agree to:

I rather prefer to give Indians Camel Riders and make the Sowar/Suwar a new unique lancer on horseback with an Ahadi RG.

Suwar is another spelling for Sowar (related to Persian Savar btw), which I used, cause I don't know yet how much of a elite the Ahadis were for real (and hence limited in numbers). For obvious reasons I wouldn't want to give a horseman with the stats of the AoE3 Sowar a name of an elite horseman. According to an ill-founded source is Tabinan the term for the lowest regular Indian horsemen (Tabinan seems to be plural, no idea about singular; Tabin maybe?). Then it might make sense to upgrade Tabinan to Ahadis.

Another option would be to merge the Ahadi unit with the HC Jat Lancer in some way (which would likely result in removing the Jat Lancer as HC unit). It might be inevitable anyway to drop the Jat Lancer as a HC merc considering that Indian regular units always have a Mansabdar version to which the current Jat Lancer merc wouldn't be much different in regards of stats.

Quote:
As for their elephants, Mahout, Howdah and Siege Elephants are pretty different to each other, so I suggest just to drop the Flail Elephant and changing the stats of the Mahout (maybe, no more lance) and put them on the Kraal.

I feel that we should refrain from the ahistorical massed use of elephants implied by ES/BHG. We could merge Elephants too and adjust their pricing accordingly. When it came to elephants ES/BHG seemed to prefer thinking in simple categories and make a new Elephant unit for each task: Lancer Elephant (Mahout Lancer), Siege Elephant, Flail Elephant, Gunner Elephant (Howdah). Following that logic just an Archer Elephant seems to be missing. They also don't act differently when put to melee or ranged mode. This is a point though that is ideal for reducing redundance. Why not make one strong elephant that uses either flail/lance in melee and a cannon at range while possibly moving remaining designs such as the Howdah (a single gunman so strong is ridiculous anyway) to HC/elsewhere in a more exclusive role? That saves a lot of space, provides more room for new units and doesn't result in having to mass-produce additional assets for an already saturated civ. If we need to drop stuff, I'd vote to recycle them at some other place in the game so that it wasn't done in vain and get lost unjustly.

Quote:
Regarding their flag, leader and explorer, I don't see any reason to change all them. Let's keep the Brahmin Monks at least.

Considering my insight not to split the Indians, Brahmins might be just fine, but that flag has to vanish and Aurangzeb would represent a more modern Indian civ. As I said, changing major visuals like flag and AI char are psychologically very effective means to indicate the major changes which we are discussing here.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:21 am    Post subject:

A. Yes Ahadis were relatively elite but you Tilanus have come up with an ingenious word I forgot to mention, the Tabin (?) which literally just means "horse rider" this would be a perfect name for a base unit.
B. I say kick the Jat Lancer entirely as they are really a product of the Raj and are really only a reference to one regiment, I say just kick.
C. I agree that many elephants ought to be dropped as apparently ES thought they were making a Maurya/Persian civ and added a bunch, I would say one, powerful War Elephant is more than enough.
D. I am actually to hear Auragzeb's name thrown into the ring as I find him most fitting to the time period and as Tilanus said it is a good way to show change in the civ.
E. Of course the Mughals deserve plenty of artillery units and I support many of the suggestions so far.

Also I am slightly confused, is India to be split or not?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:05 pm    Post subject:

As requested some details about the gurkha as a melee - oriented mercenary unit available in the saloon and as shipments to India and Great Britain .
Spoiler:



Ghurka and his khukri
Since Resident Evil we know that kukris are good for chopping of zombies ' heads . But in fact kukris are good for chopping of everybody ' s head . The kukri is the traditional knife of the poeple of Nepal . It ' s also melee weapon of choice for the gurkhas , soldiers from Nepal that fought for various factions and continue their service today in the armies of Nepal , India and Great Britain . Khukris vary in size as they have different uses . It ' s a common utility knife of rather small size but can also be a deadly weapon that resembles a machete . Implementation : While the gurkha were also skilled riflemen I think it would be much more fun to have them wield their famous knifes . Stat - wise I ' m a bit undecided . I could imagine them as light infantry similar to Chinese disciples ( as I think there currently does not exist a light infantry mercenary ) with the possibility to land critical hits and dominating ranged infantry such as skirmishers OR a unit similar to the current urumi - swordsmen .
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Prussian Landwehr
Prussian Landwehr


Joined: 25 Feb 2015
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:46 pm    Post subject:

Mawlawi maybe could replace the Brahmin.
I would suggest that u choose Mughal affliction or Marathas affliction
Tamils and Sinhalese may be a good native for indians in ceylon map
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