On the Subject of the Mughals
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:35 pm    Post subject:

What do you mean affliction?

If you mean being able to choose to be more Mughal or Maratha, you may want to read the rest of the thread
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 1:16 am    Post subject:

Orwell wrote:
What do you mean affliction?

If you mean being able to choose to be more Mughal or Maratha, you may want to read the rest of the thread


If you don't mind I will enter here Razz

I am in favor on spliting India between mughauls and Marathas! \0/ i have been making a lot of research (in the right timeline now) and I developed a Maratha civ summary that is pretty historical accurate.
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: On the Subject of the Mughals

Orwell wrote:
Welcome to the Land of the Mughals

The Rulers and the Capital

Ruler:
A. Akbar, the current ruler, he is the most famous of the options and is famed as one of the greatest leaders of the Mughal Empire. My personal choice. But just in case you really want to change leaders, here are some other options.
B. Babur, the founder of the Mughal Empire and also an elephant, famed for his role in founding the Mughal Empire and the Battle of Panipat.
C. Aurangzeb, the sixth emperor of the Mughal Empire, famed for his expansion of the empire and his relations with the British.

Capital:
I only see one option here and that is Agra, the traditional capital of the Mughal Empire.

Units

Brahmin Arrow Mogul: First of let me go ahead and say that I know traditionally should be a monk, but considering this is a Muslim-empire I'm not sure that fits. Anyway, the Mogul will be a elephant-howdah explorer and will have an aura that makes allied units stronger around him, he will still have the stomp ability.

Sepoy Arrow Tofangchi: The Persian gunpowder troops and the Mughal are very similar and so they could just use the same unit though if you don't mind.

Ghurka Arrow Tir-Andaz: Yes that does just mean "arrow-throwers" but I am limited on sources for Mughal Infantry, but the archers of the Mughals could easily be used as a new skirmisher unit. In-game would be a light, fast archer unit who would act as a skirmisher.

Rajput Arrow Barchhah: Just a normal spearman, I removed the Rajput as they were traditionally enemies of the Mughals but perhaps they can be shipped from the HC. In-game would be a spearman that would have good hand armor and a good attack.

Sowar Arrow Ahadis: The royal lancers, the gentleman cavalry. These troops will be armed with a lance and covered in chainmail. In-game would be a fast, medium armored cavalry with heavy costs to build.

Zamburak Arrow Kaman Rider: Literaly meaning " Bow riders", these would be horse archers wearing chainmail and using a variant of recurve bow . These would be a good ranged cavalry unit that would be expensive to build and move slower than the original Zamburak

Mahout Arrow Mahout(changed): The Mahout will stay but change. It will now be uber-expensive ( as in 900 food and 600 gold), slow, but have an ultra-powerful attack as well as high HP. Also if possible enemy units around the Mahout will have a negative combat modifier.

Flail Elephant Arrow Removed

Howdah Arrow Howdah(changed): Again uber-expensive unit, slow, but tough to kill. Also change the Musketeer in the howdah to a bowman.

Siege Elephant Arrow Farsakh Cannon: Essentially a Lil Bombard (but retextured) pulled by an elephant. Again uber-expensive and slow but has a very powerful siege attack.

HC Units:
Rajputs
Urumi
As well as Natives (Afghans, Sufi, and Bhakti)

So as you can see they will be a unique army similar in a way to the Persians but are very different from them in their uber-expensive troops and not as heavy use of gunpowder. I will continue to edit this post after feedback discussing buildings and boni.

Sources:
https://goo.gl/dym6Xt
https://goo.gl/WGulc9
Sorry for using so few sources and such terrible ones at that but few good ones are available.


here is a summary of what i think it could be a Maratha gameplay Mr. Green



Marathas have probably the best map control and defenses due to their powerful complex of fortifications. Their town center for example is the Bhuikot, a fortificated town center that can attack even ungarrison and that is even strong late game (with cards and upgrades). It does produce villagers a little slower thought (balance reasons). They also can build Bhuikots and forts an age early than everyone else.
It would be also interesting if they had different types of forts like the Giri Durg (hill fort, is literaly a incredibly tankie fort in a hill, a lot of times they had a entire village or small city inside) or the Jal Durg (sea fort, it could be fort that you can build IN the water or in the coast with especial damage vs ships…it could also be (or work )as a dock repairing ships and training them.
Their main eco bonus is that with each shipment they get extra viles, this is balanced by their tc price and their slower villager production.
Their army early on is dependent upon more archaic units, including a great swordsman/militia the -----(still trying to found out if this is a historical accurate name). Quick and with a high attack they are good for both defense and raiding but will get redundant later (as any swordsman).
As they advance they will get access to a great number of cavalry, mostly light like the Pindari, a hybrid of tartar and hussar that has bonus damage vs villagers on its hand attack, a card can later transform them into a dragon using a blunderbuss which has less range than a dragon but a decent area damage. This cavalry is mostly for raiding but it can show itself against heavy cavalry. Most of their army is constituted of light cavalry (overall not so suited for combat), like the pindari, but they do have elephants (a monstrous cuirassier) the Husurat or Khasgi paga (cuiraisser), Bargir (cheavulier), Silladar (lacers)are avaiable, and men mounted on camels using blunderbuss (zamburak) ,since they probably won`t have this big number of cavalry in their stables you can make some of them into HC cards or transform them in wariors that you can get with the india states aliances I will speak later).
They won`t be as spam able as other civs cuirassiers and chevaliers but they will be available and are quiet strong (actually better than European versions).
Speaking of units the Marathas can acquire new units and technologies from other Indians states (such as the ones from Rajput states) by a friendly price. They could for example have a second embassy/consulate of some type to ally with specific groups (kind like Austrians).
Their lack on artillery early on is obvious, but as they get access to European contacts and develop their manufactures (modernize) they can get (at age 3) heavy and modern artillery, including hotwizers (age 4) altought they will be dependant on foreigner allies (such as portugal and french since they never really mastered those by themselves).
Their navy is also not something to be underestimated, is not the best but is certainly good and it can always improve with European contact. Galivats are caravel replacements that have a unique ability of healing automatically and also are repaired faster in docks. The Galivats have the especial ability to capture enemy ships (fishing ships to). Overall, their ships are better for raiding but can fight very well with most nations.
Their National Guard is supposed to obviously complete a weakness they have, so I tought in 2 interesting units:
Bargir Infantry: A musketeer with a good all-around long damage that is especialy good against other musketeers. However he is vulnerable in melee and even with a card that grants them bayonets they will still be vulnerable and must be aware of enemy cavalry movements. Since the Marathas don`t have strong anti-heavy infantry units and lack a more modern gunpowder front line soldier, this NG seens like a good choice.
UUs: bargir, Pindari, Rajput.
Royal: Fort (it would be interesting to have a royal fort) spearmen (Barcha), elephant (only 2 civs in NE used elephants), Lancer (?).
National Guard: Bargir Infantry.

does it look good? It pretty historical accurate at least Razz
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A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:43 pm    Post subject:

Mughal Military


Initially I thought maybe we could have a civ with only melee units (urumi as regular skirmishers and camel riders as melee anti-cavalry and a big variety and also early artillery). Of course that would be hard to balance and historically inaccurate. So here is a suggestion closer to the plans of Tilanus and Firestorm of page 1 of this thread.

Disclaimer:Remember that currently Asian civs have a different upgrade-system than Europeans. So actually there is no such thing as RGs for them. Even though that could be changed easily enough. How I imagine the Mughal unit roster:


Barracks
Archer/Tirandaz: II, to replace gurkha, shared among muslim civs
Samshirbaz: II, renamed Rajput with adjusted stats or reduced costs; anti-cavalry
Golandaz/Degandaz/Jingal: II, grenadier/elite musketeer, siege damage on ranged attack, they still benefit from siege unit-upgrades, start with 10 range which can be increased by shipment


Fortress/Foundry

Organ gun: II, short ranged, low hp, fast moveable-somewhat similar to former Swedish Leather canon
Rocket: III, all-purpose artillery similar to Japanese Flame Arrow
Siege Elephant/gun carried by elephant: high base attack, small bonus vs buildings, no other modifiers

India has a very good stable with fast but fragile camels in both cavalry roles starting from age II and the ability to switch to the more durable elephants in age III. While I really like this symmetry it is hard to reproduce with camels and horses. But there really need to be horses for India. I created a really interesting and maybe also a bit confusing stable setup for them, since their melee unit has the role of the dragoon and their ranged cavalry unit performs as hussar. I remember Tilanus bringing up this idea of such a unit when discussing Cheveaulegers with him. So credit goes to him.

Stable
Shutarnal/Zambaruk: hussar-style ranged cavalry; high attack but no boni, weak against villagers to prevent uber-raid; might also benefit from siege-unit-upgrades.
Camel Rider/Sowar: melee anti-cavalry
Rajput Zamindar/Lancer->Ahadi: (heavy) lancers, horse, somewhat similar to Jats, III
[some cavalry archer, maybe shared with Persia]

Homecity
War elephant: cuirassier equivalent with gigantic HP, decent melee attack with splash but no bonus and high siege attack ; maybe merged with Sufi War elephant; can be sent as team shipment once. So it's Warelephants for everyone!

I would like to keep Urumi simply for their coolness but they dont really belong to the Mughal Empire since they are essentially from Ceylon. See my suggestion at the natives department.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: On the Subject of the Mughals

Quote:
[quote="Orwell"]

have you any idea about these mughal gun or artillery

Confused
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:06 pm    Post subject:

Silmariel wrote:
Mughal Military


Initially I thought maybe we could have a civ with only melee units (urumi as regular skirmishers and camel riders as melee anti-cavalry and a big variety and also early artillery). Of course that would be hard to balance and historically inaccurate. So here is a suggestion closer to the plans of Tilanus and Firestorm of page 1 of this thread.

Disclaimer:Remember that currently Asian civs have a different upgrade-system than Europeans. So actually there is no such thing as RGs for them. Even though that could be changed easily enough. How I imagine the Mughal unit roster:


Barracks
Archer/Tirandaz: II, to replace gurkha, shared among muslim civs
Samshirbaz: II, renamed Rajput with adjusted stats or reduced costs; anti-cavalry
Golandaz/Degandaz/Jingal: II, grenadier/elite musketeer, siege damage on ranged attack, they still benefit from artillery-upgrades, start with 10 range which can be increased by shipment


Fortress/Foundry

Organ gun: II, short ranged, low hp, fast moveable-somewhat similar to former Swedish Leather canon
Rocket: III, all-purpose artillery similar to Japanese Flame Arrow
Siege Elephant/gun carried by elephant: high base attack, small bonus vs buildings, no other modifiers

India has a very good stable with fast but fragile camels in both cavalry roles starting from age II and the ability to switch to the more durable elephants in age III. While I really like this symmetry it is hard to reproduce with camels and horses. But there really need to be horses for India. I created a really interesting and maybe also a bit confusing stable setup for them, since their melee unit has the role of the dragoon and their ranged cavalry unit performs as hussar. I remember Tilanus bringing up this idea of such a unit when discussing Cheveaulegers with him. So credit goes to him.

Stable
Shutarnal/Zambaruk: hussar-style ranged cavalry; high attack but no boni, weak against villagers to prevent uber-raid
Camel Rider/Sowar: melee anti-cavalry
Rajput Zamindar/Lancer->Ahadi: (heavy) lancers, horse, somewhat similar to Jats, III
[some cavalry archer, maybe shared with Persia]

Homecity
War elephant: cuirassier equivalent with gigantic HP, decent melee attack with splash but no bonus and high siege attack ; maybe merged with Sufi War elephant; can be sent as team shipment once. So it's Warelephants for everyone!

I would like to keep Urumi simply for their coolness but they dont really belong to the Mughal Empire since they are essentially from Ceylon. See my suggestion at the natives department.


as warpoint POINTED out. Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused de hell?
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A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:06 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
[quote="Silmariel"]

I would like to keep Urumi simply for their coolness but they dont really belong to the Mughal Empire since they are essentially from Ceylon. See my suggestion at the natives department.


what??? urmi is indian subcontinental weapon not from ceylon it s used by maurayans also used 325bce its many varity used in all over india {except mulim kingdoms} https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urumi
mughals had excellent horse cav known as saavar or British name sowar it was not camel unit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sowar
Confused are you portraying British india with some changes Exclamation
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:50 pm    Post subject:

Holy shit people. You have ruined this thread
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: On the Subject of the Mughals

Quote:
[quote="warpoint"]

if you want to know that guns name then
it was one of the variety of Zambaruk {look closely } ithink
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:26 pm    Post subject:

Cavalry wrote:


what??? urmi is indian subcontinental weapon not from ceylon it s used by maurayans also used 325bce its many varity used in all over india {except mulim kingdoms} https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urumi
mughals had excellent horse cav known as saavar or British name sowar it was not camel unit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sowar
Confused are you portraying British india with some changes Exclamation


1. Maybe you would mind reading your own wikipedia links.
About urumi:
Quote:
(...)is a sword with a flexible whip-like blade from India. Originating in Kerala southern state of India and Sri Lanka (...)


About Sowar for example here
Quote:
(...)The state of Bikaner had a long tradition of using soldiers mounted on camels. For instance, in 1465 Rao Bika led a force of 300 sowar (or camel riders) to conquer neighbouring territories (...)
As far as I get it-Sowar simply means cavalry man and does not necessarily specify wheter its horse-cavalry or camel-cavalry.

2. I'm portraying India as what it should be-the Mughal Empire (which is Muslim btw; and that's also the answer why urumi dont fit as you pointed out-it was no common weapon in muslim kingdoms. no offense to all those hindu-nationalists flooding the forum lately). And that means suggesting as few changes as possible as they all mean work for the team. Current India works perfectly fine as a civ from a game-mechanical point of view. The setup of units/techs is a bit ahistorical though or cover a later point of time.


On a general note: while I have no say in this forums-how about using the quote button in the proper fashion instead of quoting half-a-page and adding only a one-liner?!

Edit a few lines to explain some of the changes:
Zambaruk got their high-attack without multipliers because they were basically artillery and should share this characteristic.
Sowars as DHH-like dragoons because camels are great weapons against horses. Every AoE-player should know that.
Rajput are now depicted as heavy cavalry with the possiblity to upgrade them into noble cavalry in lategame instead of being a pikemen-replacement. Akbar encouraged marriage between noble mughals and rajputs. So one could easily imagine someone of rajput descent serving in the elite cavalry units.
About the musketeer-unit; I'm not sure about the name but they should be strong but only available from age III. From a game-mechanical point of view, not necessarily a historical one.
Organ gun was developed at an early point by an engineer from Persia in service of a mughal ruler. Fits much better for a civ that has an early artillery focus than for portugal.
Siege elephant/elephant carried gun-mounting a canon on an elephant did not really work so acutally the siege elephantunit is crap. Still, elephants are useful for pulling heavy things. And for an extra heavy artillery piece being heavy is basically part of the job description.
The unique pikemen should be strong to make an pikemen/artillery rush possible.
Instead of having many shipments to upgrade elephants most shipments would evolve around siege units:
faster training, cheaper, taking up less pop, moving faster as well as the ordingary HP, Dmg and Combat shipments.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:05 am    Post subject:

Zooasaurus wrote:
Holy shit people. You have ruined this thread


I am sorry if you think we ruined the thread, it wasn`t our intention. Our intention was to cooperate with a historical basis and facts for India [/quote]

[quote="Silmariel"]

hum sorry i think you and some people may have been ofended or anoyed lately but these new indian members are not here to spam threads, and altought some love their home countries (I do ) that doesn't mean they are nationalistic (patriot is the right word). ``patriotism is to love your country, nationalism is to hate the other as Fernando Pessoa once sad. We (as many other members) are just trying to add correct and new infos about not only india but also other countries such as korea and japan.

We know TODAY that Mughauls 100% in, however ne team wont simply mix the whole india (maratha or afgans can become a revolution civ ) and there is a possibility that may actually be a Maratha (just wait for tilanus judgment to become truth, and altought i hope maratha become true as a people with a important history in for example the fights of the hindu in the late 17 century this data is still gonna be usefull and fundamental for natives maps and even Mughaus themselves.

Again i am again sorry if I by any means anoyed or ofended you Mr. Green

But really, zamburack in stable?
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A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:49 pm    Post subject:

Everyone is free to post their suggestions here. It dont feel offended due to any suggestions but I indeed feel annoyed by dismissing my arguments without arguments or with flawed arguments.

About the zamburak. As you see in my lasts post's EDIT I'm aware of the zamburak being actually some kind of artillery.
1. I think Grenadiers-which are similar as they are artillery as well as infantry should be trained at the barracks instead of the foundry. So with this in mind I think it's pretty easy to understand why zamburak should be trained at the stable.
2. Whats the difference between Siege elephant and Howdah? Of course, they have different stats. But actually both are simply elephants with a gun mounted on top of them. One of them can be trained in the stable the other one at the Castle/foundry. See-it's really hard to make a distinction here. And to keep it simple and the symmetry I decided to restrict their training to the stable.

Maybe they could be tagged as siege units and receive a decent siege attack as well as benefitting from siege-unit-upgrades. I modified my suggestion in the last post accordingly.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:02 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
[quote="Silmariel"]Everyone is free to post their suggestions here. It dont feel offended due to any suggestions but I indeed feel annoyed by dismissing my arguments without arguments or with flawed arguments

sorry for that in future i must careful.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:27 am    Post subject:

Wait wont grenadiers turn into full normal infantry ( non siege.?) maybe you mean the new sapper:D

Also about gunner elephis: never guns were used in elephants the way they are used in aoe3. There is no space for frikinghit and run ele and canonontop ele. Razz

Riders used to have a long gun or something like that to maxime the charge but that is it.
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A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:31 pm    Post subject: my some suggestion for mughal

first of all sorry for flawed some arguments.
btw
Barracks Arrow
1Samshirbaz Arrow swordmen lowest rank but very importent part of mughal army well armored with chainmail and iron shield
{age1 to 2}
2tirandaz Arrow shifted to stable because they had excellent horse archer {tirandaz sowar}
3 Banduakchi->with long indian musket {age2} but in age 3 or 4 they became sepoy why?

Stable Arrow
1Sipahi cav
Spoiler:


2Tirandaz horseman
Spoiler:


3sowar camel rider
3Zambubark- good aginst infantry artillery high attack but weak vs cav i dont know which one suit as a cav or artillery


Artillery foundry or fort->
1 Heavy cannon pull by elephants
2 organ gun
3 rockets Arrow
which variety of rockets suit
{a} bursting rocket - good vs all
{b} blade attached rocket good vs infantry
Durbar- Mr. Green
durbar is the source of mansabdar and his troops.its work just like maratha durbar but some thing different. amir=mansabdar
main amir group->
Irani amir - they provide Qizilbashi Musketeers
Uzbek - uzbek horseman
Afghan - afghan jezail musket
rajput - rajputs cav
turkish - cheap siphai cav & spear-man
Darbar tech
1 'Zat' and 'Sawar reform '->make cheap mansabdar unit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansabdar
2 Din i ilahi Arrow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Din-i_Ilahi
villager gather fast
Mawlawi l heal more unit at a time
"hakim" {healer, medic} available in mosque[masjid]faster than Mawlawi
3 European officer appointment Arrow consulate artillery get cheaper
{may be they transform bandukchi in to sepoy }
4 land reform Arrow boost food production
5 Ailan e jung Arrow give a ability "war boost " effect like tower of victory
6 royal hunt Arrow deliver some wood and food
7Kohinoor diamond Arrow darbar produce tiny gold duing all game

WONDER SYSTEM ->addressing mughal means no tower of victory karni mata charminar because they don't belong to mughals .
if not follow wonder system than ok but if follow wonder system then i suggest jaigarh cannon foundry Mr. Green { iknow technically it is difficult}

HOME CITY UNITS
1 WAR ELEPHANT
2 IN THE PLACE OF URUMI I ADD Camel Rocketeers
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=OGERDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=camel+rocketeer+mughal#v=onepage&q=camel%20rocketeer%20mughal&f=false

http://warfare.altervista.org/18C/ArmiesOfTheWarsInIndia_byPaulDStevenson.htm
Spoiler:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:09 pm    Post subject:

Wait cavalry, MUGHAULS also had Darbar?(Is Darbar or Dabar?). Was this a thing in India since when?

And thanks for mughaul info Mr. Green
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A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
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