AI problems

 
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Janissary Gerald
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:39 am    Post subject: AI problems

Hi all I've only really noticed this recently but most of the AI civs have this fixture with producing as many cavalry and artillery as they can, this is most noticeable when playing the swiss as you have a tendency to cut through everything incredibly easily except for mass artillery. does anyone know if this is purposeful or problem that is in the process of being fixed?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:31 pm    Post subject:

Hm, I've not really noticed it in that way or felt that it is much of a problem. Confused
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Ande59
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:15 am    Post subject:

It's not only the NE AI that do this, the AI in AOE3 in general tend to attempt to spam mercenaries and hand-cavalry and cannons.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:26 pm    Post subject:

Hm, I've never thought about it doing especially much cavalry; but I suppose that's true for the artillery. At least late in the game, if the AI conceivably can afford it. It's not really made for treaty games or games where you turtle forever.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:34 am    Post subject:

Actually, now that I think about it, it's not just Cavalry that they seem to mass produce. Hand-infantry (especially Halberdiers) too.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:28 am    Post subject:

If they over-produce mercenaries, cavalry, artillery and hand infantry, couldn't you just as well say they're under-producing ranged infantry?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:36 am    Post subject:

Quote:
If they over-produce mercenaries, cavalry, artillery and hand infantry, couldn't you just as well say they're under-producing ranged infantry?

Would've been easier to have just said that... now that I think about it lol

I think there's something wrong with the AI coding... maybe? As in, what they usually train to counter units?
I tested a few things with a friend of mine against expert computers.
(I'm going to include TWC civs even though you can't play against their AI in NE at the moment. Even so, the AI seem to do the similar things in TAD and NE)

It seems they only train Ranged cavalry to counter YOUR ranged cavalry (i.e. If you make Dragoons, they will make Dragoons/Horse Archers, etc. to fight against that.) I had an army of Dragoons and was surprised to see the AI train Imperial War Wagons and Dragoons.

They train Hand cavalry regardless, it seems to be backbone of every AI army (The Aztec AI seems to be intelligent [See what I did there...?] by using Coyote Runners rather than cavalry... for Obvious reasons)

Hand Infantry is mass-produced by the AI if you train Hand Cavalry... which is understandable. The issue with that is when you change your "strategy" against the AI to Artillery, for the next 15 minutes, the AI will still train Hand Infantry. For example, the Russian AI was continuously making Halberdiers against my "army" of 15 Falconets.

Artillery: They seem to make cannons regardless of situation (except of course Sioux, Aztec, China and India. The Indian AI seems to know that their Siege Elephant isn't good against Infantry, so they tend not to produce it at all. You only see 2 or 4, depending on if the Siege Elephant card is in their deck. The Chinese AI only produce Flying Rockets because of their wonder... they don't produce Flamethrowers or Hand Mortars). For example, I had an army of Hussars in their base (towards the end of the game) and I still noticed Horse Artillery being trained in batches of 5.

Ranged infantry: Usually anti-Heavy infantry such as skirms, bows, etc. You never see more than ten of these in their army at a time. Unless they are Mercenaries such as Outlaws, Jaegers. They tend not to use musketeer-type units, except Ottomans with their Jannisaries, Prussia with their Schutze and their Free Corps from the Church. (Unless they age up with 10 musketeers [Age 3 Arrow 4] or 12 musketeers and a heavy cannon [Age 4Arrow 5])
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:46 pm    Post subject:

Oh la la, the quantum physicist being all scientific lol

On the one hand its perhaps good that the AI trains units in a slightly diverse manner, if is is slow to adapt. Or... that depends on what the main issue is; poor countering or slow adaptation.

Did you try on different difficulty settings?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:50 pm    Post subject:

Actually, I did try with Hard. Medium I attempted... but I noticed something else.

First off, I would like to apologise for this extensive response.

I don't know if the following is correct, so I've put it in "Spoiler"

Spoiler:

Based off what I've seen, I think the game implements a "handicap setting", with Hard difficulty having 0%. (Same as players on ESO)

Expert would have +100% handicap, so that's 2x the timers for research, training, and double the gathering (I think people would understand what I mean, you've all tested with the Handicap setting... right?)
Hard, as I said, would have 0%
Medium would have -100% (Players can't actually have negative handicap)
Easy would be -200%
Sandbox would be -300%




So I'm going to be talking about "Relative" time...

Relative time towards Expert, the difficulty most-played online due to its challenge.

Probably the worst term to use to explain this (I'm not crazy) lol, but I'll use the Spanish AI, Queen Isabella as an example. On Expert, usually what happens is her first attack consists of mainly Mayan Pikemen (from Home city) mixed with regular pike and Rods, and she would attack between 8->12 minutes (depending on the map, Deccan would be roughly 8, Great Plains 10, and Unknown 10->12). On Hard, that attack would be around the 16 minute mark, and Medium, around 24 minutes.

Essentially, in terms of time,
Expert:Hard Ratio is roughly 1:1.6
Hard:Medium Ratio is roughly 1:1.5
Expert:Medium Ratio is roughly 1:2.4

Hard:

So I said before,
Quote:
Hand Infantry is mass-produced by the AI if you train Hand Cavalry... which is understandable. The issue with that is when you change your "strategy" against the AI to Artillery, for the next 15 minutes, the AI will still train Hand Infantry.

Which of course is 15 minutes relative to Expert time.

On Hard mode, I re-created the event (Easy way to re-produce this is by playing against Ivan, the Russian AI, and produce Hand-Cavalry for the majority of early game attacks against you, using only hand cavalry and towers to defend. He will upgrade and send mainly Halberdiers once he hits Industrial). I noticed this time, roughly 17 minutes after only having Artillery, he trained a lot more Hand Cavalry, and a lot less Halberdiers.

Based off the Time ratio earlier, that is the 1:1.6 ratio, (thanks to our candidate Queen Isabella), Relative to Expert time, Ivan should've, theoretically, kept training Halberdiers for 24 minutes.

Essentially, he was roughly 7 minutes early. Relative to Expert time, that's Roughly 4 minutes 22.5 seconds early.

So relative to Expert, Hard-setting computers react faster.

Medium:

Interesting... I noticed that the in-game timer was around 1;15 (That's 1 hour, not seconds...) and Ivan didn't seem to bother at all with sending his trusty Halberdiers to their death. I thought it was a bug, and recreated the event. Same thing happened, so I thought maybe they got smarter in terms of decision making...?
Alas, no. Upon talking to a friend of mine, he also noticed that AI (Regardless of difficulty) do not attack after around the 1 hour mark. They only defend (with the exception of FFA, they will attack after 1 hour).
Thus, I was not able to recreate the event for Medium. :C

Again, I apologise for this extensive response... as well as the poorly-constructed terminology "Relative" time.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:37 pm    Post subject:

It seems odd that medium should have a negative handicap of 100. I don't think it would be that much.

I don't know anything about AI coding, but intuitively it seems strange to me to assume that the expected behaviour of the AI is to react slower on hard than on expert, once you've concluded that the main difference seems to be in the handicap setting. The reaction time would be a bit slower because of the slower training time, of course, but the decision of the AI to switch production in reaction to something shouldn't be postponed.


Quote:
Again, I apologise for this extensive response... as well as the poorly-constructed terminology "Relative" time.
I don't think you ever have to apologise for being extensive. It's a good thing. At least it is in my book Razz
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