Neither holy nor an empire
Go to page 1, 2  Next
 
   Forum Index -> NE Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Silmariel
Conquistador
Conquistador


Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Posts: 356
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:55 pm    Post subject: Neither holy nor an empire

At requested a new thread for the beloved non-holy and non-imperial Germans.

One of my core ideas is to give the Germans the somewhat repetitive Austrian politician system. The four available politicians in each age would be:
Arch-cupbearer (Electorate of Bohemia) or Arch-Treasurer (Electorate of Palatia/Hanover; providing settlerwagons)
Arch-Steward (Electorate of Bavaria/Palatia; providing Reichstag-improvements)
Arch-Marshal (Elctorate of Saxony; providing mercenaries)
Arch-Chamberlain (Electorate of Brandenburg; providing crates)

This can be transferred nearly identically from the Austrians with few exceptions: instead of settlers the according number of settlerwagons
Also the Arch-Steward provides you with a Reichstag-travois when aging to age II and bonus to the Kreisarmeen every age up afterwards: such improvements could be: reduced traintime, reduced pop-cost, reduced costs (of a certain resource), free age-up for Kreisarmeen-units or extra units with each Kreisarmee.

Instead of free doppelsöldner with any shipment Germans gain a normal XP-flow and all mercenaries are available an age earlier. Thus you can train Landsknechts already in age II and Elemeti and l'il bombards in age III. Their cost is increased though as they beat age II units even easier than age III units. It's the quality over quantity-approach. Also the Reichstag is available in age II and you can use the Mercenary-Reichsarmee there. Your mercenary-armies are supported by strong archaics such as the Doppelsöldner. To field a strong lategame-army you will need to rely on units from the various electorates. Kreisarmeen are now smaller and train really quick, except for the Mercenary-Army. To compensate this they are overpriced.
Bavaria (Elite units): 2 Grenadiers+1 Cheveauleger 300 food/wood/coin
Hesse (counter-infantry): 5 skirmishers+1 sharpshooter 250 food/wood/coin
Hanover (anti-cavalry): 4 musketeer+2 dragoons 300 food/wood/coin
Saxony (heavy cavalry): 3 cuirassier 400 food/wood/coin
Wurttemberg (special artillery): 1 heavy canon 250 food/wood/coin

Spoiler:

Balance consideration: In return skirmishers are kicked from the infantry roster and dragoons from the stable.



A special upgrade/age-up ("Reichsarmee") allows the Germans to receive additional units with each Kreisarmee without higher cost:
Bavaria sends Gebirgsschützen
Hesse sends Jäger
Hannover sends Black Brunswicker
Saxony sends GdC
Wurttemberg sends Horse Grenadiers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tilanus Commodor
NE Commander
NE Commander


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 5078
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Neither holy nor an empire

Silmariel wrote:
One of my core ideas is to give the Germans the somewhat repetitive Austrian politician system. The four available politicians in each age would be:
Arch-cupbearer (Electorate of Bohemia) or Arch-Treasurer (Electorate of Palatia/Hanover; providing settlerwagons)
Arch-Steward (Electorate of Bavaria/Palatia; providing Reichstag-improvements)
Arch-Marshal (Elctorate of Saxony; providing mercenaries)
Arch-Chamberlain (Electorate of Brandenburg; providing crates)

This can be transferred nearly identically from the Austrians with few exceptions: instead of settlers the according number of settlerwagons
Also the Arch-Steward provides you with a Reichstag-travois when aging to age II and bonus to the Kreisarmeen every age up afterwards: such improvements could be: reduced traintime, reduced pop-cost, reduced costs (of a certain resource), free age-up for Kreisarmeen-units or extra units with each Kreisarmee.

I'm currently against copying, moving or adding politicians in that dimension. However, I will consider a few of them for sure. Shipping a Reichstag wagon is a good idea. Upgrading the Kreisarmeen is something I intended to do with HC cards, but ordinary techs and politicians are as good for that.

Quote:
Instead of free doppelsöldner with any shipment Germans gain a normal XP-flow and all mercenaries are available an age earlier.

No.
Quote:
Thus you can train Landsknechts already in age II

Yes.
Quote:
and Elemeti and l'il bombards in age III. Their cost is increased though as they beat age II units even easier than age III units. It's the quality over quantity-approach.

No.
Quote:
Also the Reichstag is available in age II and you can use the Mercenary-Reichsarmee there. Your mercenary-armies are supported by strong archaics such as the Doppelsöldner.

Yes.
Quote:
To field a strong lategame-army you will need to rely on units from the various electorates.

It's a possibility, maybe even a requirement, but certainly not the only thing. Wink

Quote:
Kreisarmeen are now smaller and train really quick, except for the Mercenary-Army. To compensate this they are overpriced.


Quote:
Bavaria (Elite units): 2 Grenadiers+1 Cheveauleger 300 food/wood/coin
Hesse (counter-infantry): 5 skirmishers+1 sharpshooter 250 food/wood/coin
Hanover (anti-cavalry): 4 musketeer+2 dragoons 300 food/wood/coin
Saxony (heavy cavalry): 3 cuirassier 400 food/wood/coin
Wurttemberg (special artillery): 1 heavy canon 250 food/wood/coin

Hm, while I do not directly agree with your selection I like the idea to make the armies smaller and faster trainable.

Quote:
Balance consideration: In return skirmishers are kicked from the infantry roster and dragoons from the stable.

May I ask why these?

Quote:
A special upgrade/age-up ("Reichsarmee") allows the Germans to receive additional units with each Kreisarmee without higher cost:
Bavaria sends Gebirgsschützen
Hesse sends Jäger
Hannover sends Black Brunswicker
Saxony sends GdC
Wurttemberg sends Horse Grenadiers

The mechanic is interesting, but not sure I'd want to activate all of this at once as the effect is quite powerful. I'd prefer a preference system in which the player decides which line he intends to expand and upgrade. This may work with additional Reichstag techs, cards, politicians or elsewhere available technologies.
_________________
Napoleonic Era Project Leader


** Support me to support NE **

Test your Age of Empires knowledge in my
Grand Age of Empires quiz! King Green!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ande59
Italian Utili
Italian Utili


Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 163
Location: Australia, "Down Under"

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:48 pm    Post subject:

Just curious... is the War Wagon ACTUALLY being considered as removal? It's quite a unique unit and has a really nice design... [I mean, considering Tabors are getting removed (... from last i checked)]

Edit: Never mind, found my answer. Ignore this. lol Sorry
_________________
A Roman walks into a bar, holds up two fingers and says "Five beers please."

"German Uhlan spam is lame" -StrelletToIndustrial
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tilanus Commodor
NE Commander
NE Commander


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 5078
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:47 am    Post subject:

Ande59 wrote:
has a really nice design...

Ugly Puncher Ugly Puncher Ugly Puncher
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ande59
Italian Utili
Italian Utili


Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 163
Location: Australia, "Down Under"

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:19 pm    Post subject:

Tilanus Commodor wrote:
Ande59 wrote:
has a really nice design...

Ugly Puncher Ugly Puncher Ugly Puncher

... I meant in terms of game pla- on second thoughts...
... I'll see myself out. *Opens door*
_________________
A Roman walks into a bar, holds up two fingers and says "Five beers please."

"German Uhlan spam is lame" -StrelletToIndustrial
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Silmariel
Conquistador
Conquistador


Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Posts: 356
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:28 pm    Post subject:

#Kreisarmeen

It's very good that you approve of faster training and smaller Kreisarmeen (eventually Wink ). While the make-up of the units comprising each Kreisarmee was absolutely random by me there is still an important point: while the total cost may vary all Kreisarmeen should cost all three resources in a 1:1:1 ratio. That's to prevent that you gather resources in vain if you are attacked by heavy-anti-cavalry forces but you only have gathered resources for the Saxon Guard cavalry for instance. So you can react more flexible to direct threats.

The idea behind removing skirmishers and dragoons was to make you rely solely on the Kreisarmeen for non-archaic-units. You will see this as a too dramatic change in gameplay I'm sure but maybe we could include it as an option? Disabling skirmishers and dragoons makes your Kreisarmeen train instantly or something.

EDIT: Well, actually, scrap this. 'twas a bad idea.

#Politicians
I see this would be a lot of work. Maybe I can still talk you into that? Wink
If that's technically possible we could expand the age-up system so that you have 6 politicians available. Those would be:
Wurttemberg as Arch-bannerbearer
Brandenburg as Arch-Chamberlain
Bohemia as Arch-Cupbearer
Bavaria/Palatia-Arch Steward
Hanoer as Arch-Treasurer
Saxony as Arch-Marshal

6 of 7 Kreisarmeen (if we take Bohemia as Austrian which we should) are now politcally represented, only Hesse is lacking. Next to their normal age-up-bonus they could provide and expand their appropriate Kreisarmee. Adding jägers to the Hessian Kreisarmee could simply be done by a unique Reichstag-tech ("Verkaufte Hessen"?) replacing the outdated Krupp-tech (ships 3 heavy canons and allows their construction in foundries; this was also the reason why the Wurttembergian Kreisarmee received a heavy canon instead of the originally intended horse artillery which fits much better!)

The only age-up-option worth be kept if you ask me is the Grandduke of Mecklenburg which could easily be shifted to the HC as a shipment sending a few C-Husaren and upgrading all hussars to RG-status.

Most NE-civs also have a special shipment which changes their age-up somewhat (Austrians-House of Habsburg: cheaper and faster age-up; Polish-Sejm: faster age-up and fortress politicians cost no coin but more food; Swedish-Stockholmer Bloodbath etc...). For the HRE this could be called Immerwährender Reichstag and each politicians sends a small amount of appropriate units.

If somebody can come up with an easier (to implement) system while maintaining this certain "preference system" Tilanus mentioned that would of course be appreciated.

#Early Mercenaries
I don't really see why you don't want to have this as I think it's really a cool and creative bonus but I guess you have your reasons. But please don't give them simple faster mercenary training as you mentioned elsewhere. Rather give them mercenary-shipments which comprise a bigger amount of units (just as they do now where you get extra mercenaries instead of uhlans/doppelsöldner/whatever free unit Germans get)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pawelec_POLAND
Continental Marine
Continental Marine


Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 156
Location: Poland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:40 pm    Post subject:

Oh my, it seems I forgot to post my mod idea for a huge conversion mod for AoE3. It gave all European civs a special building - for monarchies named Court - needed for making political decisions. For federal civs this was intended to greatly affect the gameplay. They were intended to start as their central province and gain support of other provinces (for example Italians start with Florence as their capital and may gain support of Rome, Venice, Genoa, Naples and Milan) by researching corresponding techs at the Court. Provinces enable branches of the tech tree, what means all five must be influenced to get full tech tree available. This was also meant to enable special event, called Unification, replacing the Revolution, but that's another story.

The thing is I couldn't decide whether to treat Germans and Austrians as separate civs or represent Holy Roman Empire as one civ.

Then I started playing Europa Universalis IV and all those problems seemed, like... gone.
_________________
"Let us return to the past; it will be progress."
by Giuseppe Verdi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tilanus Commodor
NE Commander
NE Commander


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 5078
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:56 pm    Post subject:

@Kreisarmeen
I was also considering a Chinese-like auto-spawn, but that'd be OP. The Reichstag and its armies were primarily designed to make up for various deficits in the unit roster and bring some imperial constitutional flair to the yet horribly archaic civ. As they provide decent troops in higher numbers they make a nice contrast to the Chinese system. I'd like to conserve these core traits. So smaller armies should be possible, but I'm not gonna make the Reichstag a spammy speedy breeder.

Also to keep on illustrating the politicial complexity and fragility that was characteristic for the HRE I don't want to change it too much. In the end I also have an interest in creating representative symbols that have a playful site but aren't meant to be dominated or get rationalized by demands of competitive play.

Something costing all three resources makes the armies harder to spam indeed, but also a bit unappealing. I prefer to mix these resources in different constellations, since those also avoid spamming, but have a low-entry level that makes the Reichstag also an option if you lack a certain resource while your idea requires a balanced resource count for all three resources. And actually, you never really any resource 'in vain'.

Quote:
EDIT: Well, actually, scrap this. 'twas a bad idea.

Gladly. Mr. Green

Quote:
#Politicians
I see this would be a lot of work. Maybe I can still talk you into that?
If that's technically possible we could expand the age-up system so that you have 6 politicians available.

No, with a lot of effort maybe, but you'll get the same answer that I aleady gave Pawelec. The gain is too small and not worth the effort. I'm trying my best for each civ in the given time, but there's explicitely no call for completeness. There's a bunch of other civs that deserve equal attention, so I beg you to step back a lil on the dimension of technical changes that your ambitious concept ideas require. I'll note these politician titles and see whether I can put them to fair and effective use. I'll just not do everything possible only to have fancy arches in the German politician selection menu.

Quote:
6 of 7 Kreisarmeen (if we take Bohemia as Austrian which we should) are now politcally represented, only Hesse is lacking.

Hesse is not missing. Maybe in your crude plans. Razz

Quote:
Next to their normal age-up-bonus they could provide and expand their appropriate Kreisarmee. Adding jägers to the Hessian Kreisarmee could simply be done by a unique Reichstag-tech ("Verkaufte Hessen"?) replacing the outdated Krupp-tech (ships 3 heavy canons and allows their construction in foundries; this was also the reason why the Wurttembergian Kreisarmee received a heavy canon instead of the originally intended horse artillery which fits much better!)

Krupp tech will be replaced, don't worry. Hessians are another topic. I'd like very much try them as unique natives actually. I did my research regarding the composition of the Kreisarmeen. None of the armies is randomly made up. Smile

Quote:
The only age-up-option worth be kept if you ask me is the Grandduke of Mecklenburg which could easily be shifted to the HC as a shipment sending a few C-Husaren and upgrading all hussars to RG-status.

Don't like it, because it doesn't work well. What happens if you upgrade to Imperial Hussars first. Will you be downgraded and sacrifice the imperial upgrade? ^^

Quote:
Most NE-civs also have a special shipment which changes their age-up somewhat (Austrians-House of Habsburg: cheaper and faster age-up; Polish-Sejm: faster age-up and fortress politicians cost no coin but more food; Swedish-Stockholmer Bloodbath etc...). For the HRE this could be called Immerwährender Reichstag and each politicians sends a small amount of appropriate units.

I don't know if every civ needs that or if it doesn't make more sense to reduce or alter these effects actually. What's the point if all the civs get an 'uniquenized' version of more or less one and the same effect? The card name is good though, however, a bit 'too german'. ^^

Quote:
If somebody can come up with an easier (to implement) system while maintaining this certain "preference system" Tilanus mentioned that would of course be appreciated.

Quote:
This may work with additional Reichstag techs, cards, politicians or elsewhere available technologies.


Quote:
#Early Mercenaries
I don't really see why you don't want to have this as I think it's really a cool and creative bonus but I guess you have your reasons. But please don't give them simple faster mercenary training as you mentioned elsewhere. Rather give them mercenary-shipments which comprise a bigger amount of units (just as they do now where you get extra mercenaries instead of uhlans/doppelsöldner/whatever free unit Germans get)

I think it's a lame bonus, especially for Germans who already have the capabilities to do very well with mercs. No need to push the boundaries further. Keep in mind that I'll shift some Austrian merc boni back to the HRE, so there'll be enough merc frenzy going on in the German civ. With the Reichssöldner army they already have an early mercenary bonus. Just please consider for a second how strong mercenaries are compared your regular Age 2 troops.

Pawelec_POLAND wrote:
Oh my, it seems I forgot to post my mod idea for a huge conversion mod for AoE3. It gave all European civs a special building - for monarchies named Court - needed for making political decisions. For federal civs this was intended to greatly affect the gameplay. They were intended to start as their central province and gain support of other provinces (for example Italians start with Florence as their capital and may gain support of Rome, Venice, Genoa, Naples and Milan) by researching corresponding techs at the Court. Provinces enable branches of the tech tree, what means all five must be influenced to get full tech tree available. This was also meant to enable special event, called Unification, replacing the Revolution, but that's another story.

The thing is I couldn't decide whether to treat Germans and Austrians as separate civs or represent Holy Roman Empire as one civ.

Then I started playing Europa Universalis IV and all those problems seemed, like... gone.

Are you falling back into old habits, Pawelec? Mr. Green
_________________
Napoleonic Era Project Leader


** Support me to support NE **

Test your Age of Empires knowledge in my
Grand Age of Empires quiz! King Green!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Silmariel
Conquistador
Conquistador


Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Posts: 356
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:24 pm    Post subject:

#Kreisarmeen

Auto-spawn would leave you with either very small Kreisarmeen or veeeery long spawn-times (or both). But if you keep the Kreisarmeen the way they currently are: long traintime, high cost, great bodycount, different resources I doubt they will get very popular (i.e. used very often).

The problem I see currently (and thus suggested the removal of warwagon/dragoon and skirmisher for a second) is that there are not many gaps to fill with the current German unit roster. Skirmishers+warwagons is one of the best combos you can have. And while warwagons are ugly from an aesthetic and historian's point of view they are efficient anti-cavalry.

Making the Kreisarmeen cost all resources 1:1:1 is not supposed to prevent spamming. It's supposed to give you more flexibility. If you have small and quick-training Kreisarmeen you won't need that. But if you have the big armies that are there currently it certainly makes them more interesting. Also because your enemy cannot predict your army-composition as easily. Plus: I think players should not be encouraged to use their "spare" resources for Kreisarmeen. Well, actually, no one would do anyway. You simply don't have like 2000 resources spare at your disposal until veeeery late game (i.e. Imperial). And then you go ww+skirms again.

#Hesse as natives
I'm sure they could be interesting. And maybe we could also expect a "Reich"-map with various (or on occasion even all) German natives at some point of time? I wonder though which unit you would pick for them? Their army seems pretty standard and if you tweak the current mercenary unit to be their native unit I wonder which unit is going to replace them? Irish Wildgoose?

Edit: Only distinguishable term I found was Feldjäger. That would be a skirmisher-unit again though. Could also be used for the German skirmisher-RG.

#C-Husaren
Well, they either could be a shipment similar to the Prussian Ansbach/Bayreuth Dragoons with the HRE getting a new standard cavalry unit (someone suggested the Chevauleger I've heard; you could return to Uhlans again as well though-with the Saxon-Polish union I think Uhlans became a major department in the Saxonian cavalry). Or it could be a royal guard upgrade similar to the Swedish ones (with the bearskin-helmet-icon; which is an extra-upgrade, independent from the normal guard-upgrade). Or it simply auto-upgrades your Hussars to whatever age you are in. Or it could be a church-tech. Or-and I struggle to write this option as I guess you'll pick that one then anyway: you leave it the way it is.

#"Unique"-age-u-shipments
I added this, simply because I think the "Immerwährender Reichstag" should somehow be involved. Reviewing those shipments on their usefulness would certainly be not false. I'm not gonna make a list this time though. But it's only 4 or 5 of those shipments anyway. Some of them certainly can be leading to interesting strats. But also remember: standard-shipment in age I is 3 villagers so they would need to be better than that in case they should be used regularly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tilanus Commodor
NE Commander
NE Commander


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 5078
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:10 pm    Post subject:

Silmariel wrote:
#Kreisarmeen

Auto-spawn would leave you with either very small Kreisarmeen or veeeery long spawn-times (or both). But if you keep the Kreisarmeen the way they currently are: long traintime, high cost, great bodycount, different resources I doubt they will get very popular (i.e. used very often).

Kreisarmeen were never meant to replace the regular unit training (which comes with few to no disadvantages btw). The Germans are - yet - quite as much the same as in the original AoE3. It will change, but please realize that the penalties are few and that even the AoE3 Germans - without all these Reichstag additions - are still played by good players.

Quote:
The problem I see currently (and thus suggested the removal of warwagon/dragoon and skirmisher for a second) is that there are not many gaps to fill with the current German unit roster. Skirmishers+warwagons is one of the best combos you can have. And while warwagons are ugly from an aesthetic and historian's point of view they are efficient anti-cavalry.

Yea, I agree, it's technically a superior combo, though vastly ahistorical. I tend to tweak Skirmishers at some point so that they don't tend to make that massive appearance in matches as they easily do now. They shall be more exclusive - and stat-monsters like War Wagons will be replaced by Chevauxleger-like elite units. Actually, seen from a historical point of view, Germans should have been one of the civs with a very rich unit roster and not that artificial, on single killer units focused pseudo civ that it is in AoE3. I mean the vast multitude of troop types that emerged from within the HRE and got some reputation is the best argument for that.

Quote:
Making the Kreisarmeen cost all resources 1:1:1 is not supposed to prevent spamming. It's supposed to give you more flexibility. If you have small and quick-training Kreisarmeen you won't need that. But if you have the big armies that are there currently it certainly makes them more interesting. Also because your enemy cannot predict your army-composition as easily. Plus: I think players should not be encouraged to use their "spare" resources for Kreisarmeen. Well, actually, no one would do anyway. You simply don't have like 2000 resources spare at your disposal until veeeery late game (i.e. Imperial). And then you go ww+skirms again.

Maybe we are misunderstanding us here fundamentally about the ratios. You're *not* saying they should always cost each 3 resources, but just that they should cost the same count, right?

Even if you mean that, I don't think that this increases flexibility. If you disagree, maybe care a bit more to illustrate that. I know about the "cost barrier" that the current armies have and I already agreed with reducing both the quantity, costs and maybe train time (some do have boni here) of several armies. To find a good compromise.

That's because I want to keep some of the traits you'd like to see removed. Even though costs are high, it's not impossible to implement these armies in your play. Depending on your situation, some armies fit better than others, a few might not fit at all. That's intended. And finally, remember that the mod is not solely being developed having online pro gamers in mind, but also the majority of average and under-average singleplayers. They don't see the problems that you see, but just cool armies. Wink

Quote:
#Hesse as natives
I'm sure they could be interesting. And maybe we could also expect a "Reich"-map with various (or on occasion even all) German natives at some point of time? I wonder though which unit you would pick for them? Their army seems pretty standard and if you tweak the current mercenary unit to be their native unit I wonder which unit is going to replace them? Irish Wildgoose?

Edit: Only distinguishable term I found was Feldjäger. That would be a skirmisher-unit again though. Could also be used for the German skirmisher-RG.

Had the Feldjäger on my list too - and another one (which I'm not going to reveal). Hessians would not be the boring standard natives. Wink

Why would I need to replace a mercenary just because I would make a downgraded version of it? There can be different technical versions of the same unit - or I'm as blasphemic to the game's rules and just offer a merc? ^^

As for a map of the Reich with all maps and natives, it'll take some time to complete it (because plans for new maps and natives will be released only when time is due [and when progress has been made]). But I can serve you that map (and much more), sure. Wink

Quote:
#C-Husaren
Well, they either could be a shipment similar to the Prussian Ansbach/Bayreuth Dragoons with the HRE getting a new standard cavalry unit (someone suggested the Chevauleger I've heard; you could return to Uhlans again as well though-with the Saxon-Polish union I think Uhlans became a major department in the Saxonian cavalry). Or it could be a royal guard upgrade similar to the Swedish ones (with the bearskin-helmet-icon; which is an extra-upgrade, independent from the normal guard-upgrade). Or it simply auto-upgrades your Hussars to whatever age you are in. Or it could be a church-tech. Or-and I struggle to write this option as I guess you'll pick that one then anyway: you leave it the way it is.

Polish-Saxonian Uhlans are a good idea for a HC card, thanks for that. Smile Hussars are going to stay, even if they would get Chevaulegers in addition (everyone loves a rich stable). I don't see much need for changes here.

Quote:
"Unique"-age-u-shipments
I added this, simply because I think the "Immerwährender Reichstag" should somehow be involved. Reviewing those shipments on their usefulness would certainly be not false. I'm not gonna make a list this time though. But it's only 4 or 5 of those shipments anyway. Some of them certainly can be leading to interesting strats. But also remember: standard-shipment in age I is 3 villagers so they would need to be better than that in case they should be used regularly.

I agree on featuring that name somewhere somehow, but I cannot promise to do it that way.
_________________
Napoleonic Era Project Leader


** Support me to support NE **

Test your Age of Empires knowledge in my
Grand Age of Empires quiz! King Green!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Yurashic
French Conscript
French Conscript


Joined: 21 Oct 2015
Posts: 23
Location: Russia

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:50 pm    Post subject:

Why would you come up with these crazy ideas that totally change the gameplay? The more new things you invent and add into the original AOE 3 the worse it will be because with every new idea it becomes harder to balance civilizations and harder to keep the game competitive.

It was an interesting idea that American frontiersmen can scout the map while trickling food as if they are gathering, but it turned out that they can just go to the enemy and shoot his huntable animals away without loosing food because of walking.

It would have been much better if the NE team fixed bugs and balanced maps instead of changing the game a lot and adding new features. Our NE clan on ESO plays games on standard maps and not on NE maps because unfortunately they are not really competitive: too big and with bad resources.

NE has always been about quality, and I do not want the mod to lose it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Skype Name
Tilanus Commodor
NE Commander
NE Commander


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 5078
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:47 am    Post subject:

Yurashic wrote:
Why would you come up with these crazy ideas that totally change the gameplay? The more new things you invent and add into the original AOE 3 the worse it will be because with every new idea it becomes harder to balance civilizations and harder to keep the game competitive.

Because we have a different vision of AoE3 as a part of the Age of Empires franchise and as a historically themed game. I find it funny how extremely different the reactions are towards the design ideas discussed here. Some say the differences between Hussars and the proposed Chevaulegers are too small to be relevant, but here I'm getting to see a completely different reaction. Which I like, because it illustrates that NE managed to appeal different audiences of the same game.

Frankly, I can't tell how much I agree with your second sentence, especially if I think about some other mod that knows no limits in quantity. I am however very cautious about large-scale additions and changes and everyone who's worked with me en detail will confirm that. I think there's never been a point in the making of NE in which competitive balance has been taken more serious than now. But let me be very clear that competitive online play is by far not the only thing that matters to us.

I consider AoE3 to already have the most complex balance of all AoE titles and it does itself suffer from the point you made. I find the balance in AoE3 also literally in-credible as it comes with constructs that may not bother highly competitive players, but that are hard to grasp from a logical point of view. AoE3 simply lacks a big portion of credibility and authenticity in regard to its content and balance. In game theory there's a word for it, ludonarrative dissonance. I could go more into details now, but it's pretty late for me already and I think you might already have gotten my point, that Age of Empires is not just about competitive play, but that there's also a lot of narration and aesthetics in it.

Just a last addition to the issue you were addressing: NE will remain competitive no matter what we add. The only thing that changes is the meta and my assumption is that this is what competitive players are ironically afraid of. They have grown so comfortable with playing always the same civs on always the same maps, that they dislike changes to the game, because it could mean that they have to change as well and adapt to new situations, a skill that pro gamers are actually praised for. These people will - if anything - ultimately install the ESOC FP (which I support). Curious players who truly look for new challenges and a modified (not entirely new) meta, but value quality work also in balance, those people will install Napoleonic Era.
As I said before, balance has never been more important to NE than now. All the NE versions we had were and are far away from being well-balanced. Just look at civilizations like the Swiss, Swedish or Italians. So you should actually be happy, that the multiplayer balance will increasingly improve, now that we've discovered it as one of our main columns of design. Wink

Quote:
It was an interesting idea that American frontiersmen can scout the map while trickling food as if they are gathering, but it turned out that they can just go to the enemy and shoot his huntable animals away without loosing food because of walking.

Exactly. It's called "unintended gameplay". The original designers had another idea how the unit would be used, but they ignored the creativity and pure evil that is in competitive play. So the Frontiersman is a good example for things that are worth replacing with new things instead. As you said it, the idea was interesting, but failed the practical test. Since its concept is the interesting feature of that unit, the problem is a structural one, that you can not fix with cosmetic fixes. If you take away its appeal, the unit becomes obsolete. So making a concept that replaces the old one - or the decision not to need a new one - does the job here.

Quote:
It would have been much better if the NE team fixed bugs and balanced maps instead of changing the game a lot and adding new features. Our NE clan on ESO plays games on standard maps and not on NE maps because unfortunately they are not really competitive: too big and with bad resources.

NE has always been about quality, and I do not want the mod to lose it.

What can I say? We're trying to do that as much as our resources of time and manpower allow it. I'm aware of the deficits you pointed out and have already started with countermeasures. Edeholland and other people from ESOC FP have provided feedback to a series of NE maps to make them more balanced.
I'm genuinely interested in providing the best compromise for and between the different audiences of NE. That means, that NE will get gradually improved for competitive play, but also the other enjoyable parts of the game. And I think since high level play hardly passes Fortress Age and pro gamers tend to reduce the game on its most effective things that finding this compromise will be well-possible. Smile

So I hope you could see that, even though I intend to change AoE3/NE stronger, that this won't result in a worse balance, but that with our new awareness of balance issues we'll be able to live up to the quality standards you appreciate about NE. =)
_________________
Napoleonic Era Project Leader


** Support me to support NE **

Test your Age of Empires knowledge in my
Grand Age of Empires quiz! King Green!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Yurashic
French Conscript
French Conscript


Joined: 21 Oct 2015
Posts: 23
Location: Russia

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:44 pm    Post subject:

Thank you for a detailed answer, I really appreciate your efforts to make a good game. Smile

Speaking of the German civilization changes, I think you could add Garde du Corps to the stable, available in age 4 or 5. A new cool unit with a unique picture and model has such a limited use, it is just sad. Sad

By the way, heavy cannons from artillery foundries (with the Reichstag tech active) take the same time to train as factory cannons and train only in batches of 1, is there any way to fix it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Skype Name
Pawelec_POLAND
Continental Marine
Continental Marine


Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 156
Location: Poland

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:37 pm    Post subject:

Tilanus Commodor wrote:
Pawelec_POLAND wrote:
Oh my, it seems I forgot to post my mod idea for a huge conversion mod for AoE3. It gave all European civs a special building - for monarchies named Court - needed for making political decisions. For federal civs this was intended to greatly affect the gameplay. They were intended to start as their central province and gain support of other provinces (for example Italians start with Florence as their capital and may gain support of Rome, Venice, Genoa, Naples and Milan) by researching corresponding techs at the Court. Provinces enable branches of the tech tree, what means all five must be influenced to get full tech tree available. This was also meant to enable special event, called Unification, replacing the Revolution, but that's another story.

The thing is I couldn't decide whether to treat Germans and Austrians as separate civs or represent Holy Roman Empire as one civ.

Then I started playing Europa Universalis IV and all those problems seemed, like... gone.

Are you falling back into old habits, Pawelec? Mr. Green

Well, you see, in total conversion mod it wouldn't be that drastic (more drastic moves were planned, such as adding export-like resource to European civs, reinventing HC cards and making the civs much more unique in terms of gameplay).

Why I posted this here was because I see a serious problem with Germans, Austrians and Prussians represented as separate civs in mod's time period. This would work for Napoleonic times, but the timeline isn't focused on Napoleonic era.

Sorry, but I had to express that: why the hell is Augustus the Strong a German leader?! He'd very likely be forgotten in Saxony if Austria, Russia and Lehmann-Wertheimer banks didn't help him claim the Polish throne. He was so obssesed with fighting the Swedes that he allied Denmark and Russia, caused the Second Northern War and Lithuanian Civil War of 1700, which both have devastated Polish and Lithuanian countryside and Saxon army (because Polish army was non-existant as a result of his politics and Lithuanian was fighting in the civil war). He also didn't notice the importance of Brandenburg turning into Kingdom of Prussia, what resulted in drastic decrease of trade income. In 1719 his influences were so weak that he needed support of both Austria and Great Britain to convince the Tsar to withdraw Russian army from Poland. He ate so much sweets that he died in agony because of diabetic feet infection. His last words were "My life was one, undisturbed sin."

The only remarkable fact about him is that J.S. Bach dedicated The Great Mass in B minor to his son. Oh wait, that's not about Augustus the Strong...
_________________
"Let us return to the past; it will be progress."
by Giuseppe Verdi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tilanus Commodor
NE Commander
NE Commander


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 5078
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:02 pm    Post subject:

Yurashic wrote:
Speaking of the German civilization changes, I think you could add Garde du Corps to the stable, available in age 4 or 5. A new cool unit with a unique picture and model has such a limited use, it is just sad. Sad

The Garde du Corps is yet only unique to Germans, but it'll increasingly get shared with other civs. We can make a tech or hc card though that allows Germans to train the Garde du Corps also

Quote:
By the way, heavy cannons from artillery foundries (with the Reichstag tech active) take the same time to train as factory cannons and train only in batches of 1, is there any way to fix it?

What's exactly wrong with a long training for a cannon as powerful as this? I mean I see "batches of 1" makes little sense (at least right now, maybe there's a good technical reason for this), but I wouldn't want to make the heavy cannon train faster. ^^

Pawelec_POLAND wrote:
Why I posted this here was because I see a serious problem with Germans, Austrians and Prussians represented as separate civs in mod's time period. This would work for Napoleonic times, but the timeline isn't focused on Napoleonic era.

I don't see any problem here, especially from a historical point of view. I rather assume it's the modern view on states and a lack of information that makes it look like a logical mistake.

Within and outside the HRE, there were many different levels of governmental independence. If you compare the HRE with the EU, it should immediately be easier to understand why all three civs are treated separately. The Habsburg Archduchy of Austria, the Kingdom of Prussia (and its predecessors) and the HRE itself as a confederation can be seen as individual players whose interest could be diverging. The first two were increasingly gaining independence from and territory outside the HRE and became opponents (known as Prussian-Austrian dualism). A membership in the HRE it was - for the duchies and electorates - the privilege of participation. The Holy Roman Emperor was the most privileged member and official head of the HRE, but politically a rather weak monarch. It's like saying 'You can't feature modern Germany (~Austrians) and UK (~Prussians) as civs, because you already have the EU (~HRE)'. This separation was possible long before Napoleon.

Quote:
Sorry, but I had to express that: why the hell is Augustus the Strong a German leader?! He'd very likely be forgotten in Saxony if Austria, Russia and Lehmann-Wertheimer banks didn't help him claim the Polish throne. He was so obssesed with fighting the Swedes that he allied Denmark and Russia, caused the Second Northern War and Lithuanian Civil War of 1700, which both have devastated Polish and Lithuanian countryside and Saxon army (because Polish army was non-existant as a result of his politics and Lithuanian was fighting in the civil war). He also didn't notice the importance of Brandenburg turning into Kingdom of Prussia, what resulted in drastic decrease of trade income. In 1719 his influences were so weak that he needed support of both Austria and Great Britain to convince the Tsar to withdraw Russian army from Poland. He ate so much sweets that he died in agony because of diabetic feet infection. His last words were "My life was one, undisturbed sin."

The only remarkable fact about him is that J.S. Bach dedicated The Great Mass in B minor to his son. Oh wait, that's not about Augustus the Strong...

I think you can make this argument about sponsored thrones for almost every emperor of the HRE due to numerous dynastic interrelations (and hence attached political interests) with the HRE. So forgive if I ignore this argument, because it applies to nearly everyone. ^^

Augustus is a prestigious German prince elector (other than Count Montgelas for example) and coined Saxony like no other monarch. Austrian, Hanoverian and Prussian rulers were excluded from the pool of choices right from the start. The first and last should be clear, Hanoverians were in personal union with Britain and provided many British kings. The only theoretical alternative would be Karl VII of Bavaria, who was the only non-Habsburg emperor, but also pretty insignificant.

But yes, to be completely fair, Augustus was not Holy Roman Emperor and also King of Poland, but the governmental differences between the Archduchy of Austria, Kingdom of Prussia and the HRE are still as obvious to me that they justify having the HRE as an own civ. What is your counter-suggestion even? Do you want to merge all those civs? Or just Austrians with the HRE? If I may ask, which AI personality would you suggest for the HRE?
_________________
Napoleonic Era Project Leader


** Support me to support NE **

Test your Age of Empires knowledge in my
Grand Age of Empires quiz! King Green!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Firestorm
NE Guard
NE Guard


Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 94
Location: Somewhere in the Balkans

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:36 am    Post subject:

I find unnecessary to change/cut/add civilizations based on the ruler. It'd true that from 1648 to 1866 Germany was divided with no single ruler exercising much control in the area (even at the time of the Confederation of the Rhine), so ES decided to use significant rulers of their nations rather then messing up with the complicated political matters. I don't see why NE shouldn't follow the same pattern. Just take a look at the original civilizations.
1. British - Queen Elizabeth, the one that ruled the Kingdoms of England and Ireland, but there was not a Great Britain or United Kingdom prior 1707 (she died in 1603) and Scotland was ruled by the Stuarts, who after the death of Elizabeth I, controlled both kingdoms under a personal union.
2. French - Napoleon, the emperor of France and half Europe but their flag in AoE 3 was still the one used by the Valois kings and in part by the Bourbon kings. NE fixed the flag issue but ES meant that the civilization covered most of France's history from the Valois to Napoleon.
3. Dutch - Maurice of Nassau, an excellent choice by ES but there were other rulers who did have more political power inside the country. But Maurice's legacy in the history of the Netherlands can't be ignored.
4. Spain and Portugal - Queen Isabella I and Henry the Navigator, both ruled mainly in the XV century but were very important in early modern Spain and Portugal. Both countries had other powerful monarchs in XVI century (which fits NE timeline), so changes could be applied on these civilizations regarding their AI personality.
5. Germans - Frederick the Great, who was the king of Prussia but not Germany. He neither was a holy roman emperor. But AoE 3 lacked an Prussian and Austrian civilization, so they used a great monarch of a German kingdom as an AI personality. Since NE introduced both Prussians and Austrians, the Germans needed a new character. Augustus the Strong was a significant and renowned leader, for good and bad reasons. Although it still shows the name Frederick the Great in the current version, which will be fixed in NE 2.1.8.
6. Ottomans and Russians - Suleiman and Ivan the terrible are both XVI century monarchs which fit NE timeline. While the former was the greatest monarch of the Ottoman dynasty, the later was ruler of the Tsardom of Russia, an archaic form. Since Russia developed into Imperial Russia and if NE Russia's military machine gets modernized, I wouldn't mind using Peter the Great or Catherine the Great as new AI personality for Russia.
7. TWC civilizations have strange AI choices. Cuauhtemoc was the last Aztec emperor who fell together with his empire. Hiawatha is something of a legendary ruler, while Gall....who the hell is he?
8.TAD civilizations have good personality choices, they all fits NE timeline and are regarded as the greatest personalities of their respective dynasties. Probably the re-work of these civilizations in NE might include changes to their AI personalities, flags etc.

Regarding NE civilizations, Cesare Borgia never ruled all or most of Italy. But nobody else did during NE timeline. So he remains a very significant character on Italian history and a good choice by the NE team.
Henri Dufour never ruled Switzerland but he was very important at military affairs and International Red Cross, so another significant character. There are no problems regarding other NE personalities.

Sorry for going that long but I hope my arguments are relevant enough to end this issue. NE may include other civilizations in the future that like Germany and Italy are a collection of small and medium states who shares language, customs and more. No need to go mad about their AI personalities, as long as the civilizations are historical, cool and balanced Mr. Green
_________________
The ones who thinks that the Age of Piracy is over are deluding themselves!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> NE Forum All times are GMT
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group | Page design by Tilanus Commodor & michfrm.