Neither holy nor an empire
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:37 pm    Post subject:

Firestorm wrote:
I find unnecessary to change/cut/add civilizations based on the ruler. It'd true that from 1648 to 1866 Germany was divided with no single ruler exercising much control in the area (even at the time of the Confederation of the Rhine), so ES decided to use significant rulers of their nations rather then messing up with the complicated political matters. I don't see why NE shouldn't follow the same pattern. Just take a look at the original civilizations.
1. British - Queen Elizabeth, the one that ruled the Kingdoms of England and Ireland, but there was not a Great Britain or United Kingdom prior 1707 (she died in 1603) and Scotland was ruled by the Stuarts, who after the death of Elizabeth I, controlled both kingdoms under a personal union.
2. French - Napoleon, the emperor of France and half Europe but their flag in AoE 3 was still the one used by the Valois kings and in part by the Bourbon kings. NE fixed the flag issue but ES meant that the civilization covered most of France's history from the Valois to Napoleon.
3. Dutch - Maurice of Nassau, an excellent choice by ES but there were other rulers who did have more political power inside the country. But Maurice's legacy in the history of the Netherlands can't be ignored.
4. Spain and Portugal - Queen Isabella I and Henry the Navigator, both ruled mainly in the XV century but were very important in early modern Spain and Portugal. Both countries had other powerful monarchs in XVI century (which fits NE timeline), so changes could be applied on these civilizations regarding their AI personality.
5. Germans - Frederick the Great, who was the king of Prussia but not Germany. He neither was a holy roman emperor. But AoE 3 lacked an Prussian and Austrian civilization, so they used a great monarch of a German kingdom as an AI personality. Since NE introduced both Prussians and Austrians, the Germans needed a new character. Augustus the Strong was a significant and renowned leader, for good and bad reasons. Although it still shows the name Frederick the Great in the current version, which will be fixed in NE 2.1.8.
6. Ottomans and Russians - Suleiman and Ivan the terrible are both XVI century monarchs which fit NE timeline. While the former was the greatest monarch of the Ottoman dynasty, the later was ruler of the Tsardom of Russia, an archaic form. Since Russia developed into Imperial Russia and if NE Russia's military machine gets modernized, I wouldn't mind using Peter the Great or Catherine the Great as new AI personality for Russia.
7. TWC civilizations have strange AI choices. Cuauhtemoc was the last Aztec emperor who fell together with his empire. Hiawatha is something of a legendary ruler, while Gall....who the hell is he?
8.TAD civilizations have good personality choices, they all fits NE timeline and are regarded as the greatest personalities of their respective dynasties. Probably the re-work of these civilizations in NE might include changes to their AI personalities, flags etc.

Regarding NE civilizations, Cesare Borgia never ruled all or most of Italy. But nobody else did during NE timeline. So he remains a very significant character on Italian history and a good choice by the NE team.
Henri Dufour never ruled Switzerland but he was very important at military affairs and International Red Cross, so another significant character. There are no problems regarding other NE personalities.

Sorry for going that long but I hope my arguments are relevant enough to end this issue. NE may include other civilizations in the future that like Germany and Italy are a collection of small and medium states who shares language, customs and more. No need to go mad about their AI personalities, as long as the civilizations are historical, cool and balanced Mr. Green

Bravo!
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Pawelec_POLAND
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:56 pm    Post subject:

Tilanus Commodor wrote:
Firestorm wrote:
I find unnecessary to change/cut/add civilizations based on the ruler. It'd true that from 1648 to 1866 Germany was divided with no single ruler exercising much control in the area (even at the time of the Confederation of the Rhine), so ES decided to use significant rulers of their nations rather then messing up with the complicated political matters. I don't see why NE shouldn't follow the same pattern. Just take a look at the original civilizations.
1. British - Queen Elizabeth, the one that ruled the Kingdoms of England and Ireland, but there was not a Great Britain or United Kingdom prior 1707 (she died in 1603) and Scotland was ruled by the Stuarts, who after the death of Elizabeth I, controlled both kingdoms under a personal union.
2. French - Napoleon, the emperor of France and half Europe but their flag in AoE 3 was still the one used by the Valois kings and in part by the Bourbon kings. NE fixed the flag issue but ES meant that the civilization covered most of France's history from the Valois to Napoleon.
3. Dutch - Maurice of Nassau, an excellent choice by ES but there were other rulers who did have more political power inside the country. But Maurice's legacy in the history of the Netherlands can't be ignored.
4. Spain and Portugal - Queen Isabella I and Henry the Navigator, both ruled mainly in the XV century but were very important in early modern Spain and Portugal. Both countries had other powerful monarchs in XVI century (which fits NE timeline), so changes could be applied on these civilizations regarding their AI personality.
5. Germans - Frederick the Great, who was the king of Prussia but not Germany. He neither was a holy roman emperor. But AoE 3 lacked an Prussian and Austrian civilization, so they used a great monarch of a German kingdom as an AI personality. Since NE introduced both Prussians and Austrians, the Germans needed a new character. Augustus the Strong was a significant and renowned leader, for good and bad reasons. Although it still shows the name Frederick the Great in the current version, which will be fixed in NE 2.1.8.
6. Ottomans and Russians - Suleiman and Ivan the terrible are both XVI century monarchs which fit NE timeline. While the former was the greatest monarch of the Ottoman dynasty, the later was ruler of the Tsardom of Russia, an archaic form. Since Russia developed into Imperial Russia and if NE Russia's military machine gets modernized, I wouldn't mind using Peter the Great or Catherine the Great as new AI personality for Russia.
7. TWC civilizations have strange AI choices. Cuauhtemoc was the last Aztec emperor who fell together with his empire. Hiawatha is something of a legendary ruler, while Gall....who the hell is he?
8.TAD civilizations have good personality choices, they all fits NE timeline and are regarded as the greatest personalities of their respective dynasties. Probably the re-work of these civilizations in NE might include changes to their AI personalities, flags etc.

Regarding NE civilizations, Cesare Borgia never ruled all or most of Italy. But nobody else did during NE timeline. So he remains a very significant character on Italian history and a good choice by the NE team.
Henri Dufour never ruled Switzerland but he was very important at military affairs and International Red Cross, so another significant character. There are no problems regarding other NE personalities.

Sorry for going that long but I hope my arguments are relevant enough to end this issue. NE may include other civilizations in the future that like Germany and Italy are a collection of small and medium states who shares language, customs and more. No need to go mad about their AI personalities, as long as the civilizations are historical, cool and balanced Mr. Green

Bravo!
I agree, valid and on point.

Given how historically inaccurate this system is, I'd go for anonymous leaders instead of historical ones. I know this may sound boring for many people, but I'd prefer to see King of France teamed with Archduke of Austria rather than Napoleon teamed with Maria Theresa.

As for Austrians/HRE (I assumed someone from the Germanic circle has to maintain their civ-independence and I think they should be Prussians) this is extremely difficult topic. The only historically-accurate solution is the one from Europa Universalis IV, which is zillion times too complex for AoE3 (where the clostest approximation of zillion is infinity). In Rise of Nations Napoleonic campaign, the German states are treated as Austrian, which is a bit drastic. So I really don't know what to do with them. Keep the thing fun to play and it should be OK.

As for my not-even-close-to-realisation total conversion mod I intended to make HRE under Austrian rule a single, but very complex civ, with exclusive HC card mechanics, tech tree branch enabling, wide array of age-up options etc. Similar approach was planned for Italians, but for them the problem is there never really was a leading state in Italy.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:03 pm    Post subject:

Pawelec, could you at least say what exactly would have been your original suggestion? Did you want to see Austrians and Germans merged? What AI personality would you suggest for the HRE?
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Pawelec_POLAND
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:08 pm    Post subject:

Tilanus, that's a very tough question.

I don't really know how to deal with the matter in AoE3 without in-depth revolutionary changes. My vision was rather to merge Germans and Austrians, but this was to be followed by complete redesign of the mechanics, with modular gameplay to show the complexity of HRE politics. TBH there were too many new ideas to present them here. But presenting my idea in separate post in mod section... evil

As for NE I think I would keep them separate, as you guys did a great job designing the civs. Merging them at this stage would be a bad idea in my opinion.

To sum up: for historical accuracy, I'd merge Germans and Austrians. For NE gameplay, I'd keep them separate. It all depends on the devs' priorities.
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:21 pm    Post subject:

Modding Report 26 wrote:
The German unit roster is being modernized further in which War Wagons will be replaced by Dragoons and the Doppelsoldner's appearance in later ages will be avoided by turning them into some other Landsknecht-style unit.


I dont know if it has already been decided which unit that would be. My suggestion: Germany starts with an archaic landsknecht (not necessarily that name) which is somewhat a cross between pike and halberdier thus having a high base damage, HP and siege damage but only deals x3 damage to cavalry while also having 20% melee resistance instead of the normal 10%. Similar to current Longbowmen and the recently introduced Carolean they cannot be upgraded beyond veteran status until you have sent a shipment ("[Bayerische] Leibgarde") which doubles their melee armor to 40% and enables the RG-upgrade "Hartschiere" as well as "Imperial Hartschiere". Some pics:

Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Unfortunately the last picture shows a uniform that's way out of the timeframe (~1850).
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:37 am    Post subject:

Oh, I have known about Hartschiere for ages, including exactly those pics. ^^ They were pure palace guards and (almost sadly) had no military function. Otherwise, yes, this would've been an option.

I currently prefer an archaic Landsknecht, that may just stay archaic or alternatively get a RG of some sort of 18th century regimental sub-officer. However, I imagined an unique Landsknecht to be a (slightly) massable, polearm-wielding unit. Turning all these into sub-officers would be weird. A card/tech as a prerequirement for an upgrade like this would come off handy though as it allows me to adjust the unit's stats and costs all at once.
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:05 pm    Post subject:

Well, I knew that Bavarian Hartschiers had no military purpose. But there also existed other such formations in other lands of the HRE. Kurk├Âln for example.. Info is sparse about them but I guess most kings and counts and what have you of the HRE employed some sort of bodyguard unit (not necessarily Swiss ones). I guess few of them ever saw battle but it think it would still make a good fit for the HRE. Considering that-instead of only boosting their army, the RG-upgrade could also like double their HP but decrease their attack to a minimum (thus also including the somewhat odd "Solinger Steel"-shipment to a certain degree). So they would still be useful for guarding valuable units like artillery and such but could not be used for attack purposes.
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