How to counter Swedish Bronze Cannon/Musketeer assault?
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stubbo
Austrian Line Infantry
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:35 pm    Post subject: How to counter Swedish Bronze Cannon/Musketeer assault?

What units are best to counter this?

Seems very little can counter a mass of these little cannons! The game doesn't show their range or vulnerability in the advanced stats for the unit.

Help! Smile
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:54 pm    Post subject:

The best counter to Leather Cannons is the NE team. Mr. Green We can remove it. Devil lol
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stubbo
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:04 pm    Post subject:

Agreed, but getting my mates to willingly apply the update and remove them... Less easy.

So in the meantime, is there a 'best' counter unit Tilanus?
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Darwin_
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:29 pm    Post subject:

Dragoons.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:30 am    Post subject:

Skirmishers as I've heard, with some decent hit & run you are able to outrange them.
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stubbo
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:39 am    Post subject:

Thanks...I'll give Portugal a go with some fully upgraded Dragoons and Skirmishers.
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stubbo
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:50 pm    Post subject:

Looking at the multipliers in the Proto file, US Mounted Riflemen are x4 against artillery and have a decent range.

Do the upgrades like Kentucky Rifles improve them or only the non-mounted Skirmishers?

Mounted Riflemen don't seem to have much in the upgrade path otherwise.
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Girafarig
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:49 am    Post subject:

I would go with skirms and dragoons, as above, orů how about artillery of your own? I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think leather/bronze cannons don't have that much range, and they definitely don't have a lot of HP.
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stubbo
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:12 pm    Post subject:

Having now tested this out in the Scenario Editor, it would seem that Lange Kerls are the best match in Pop 2 unit vs Pop 2 Unit against Leather Cannons, with the equivalent number of units, and that War Wagons perform exceptionally well also if the equivalent number of population units are included in a straight head to head.

Dragoons just about came out on top 5 vs 5 also.
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stubbo
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:33 pm    Post subject:

Also, having just tried 20 Musketeers & 5 Leather Cannons against 15 Lange Kerls...the Lange Kerls smashed them to bits.

So I guess the answer is...Play as Prussia, build Lange Kerls (backed up by some conventional Artillery and maybe DHHs to take on any Cavalry) and see how that goes.
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stubbo
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:00 pm    Post subject:

Lastly, does anyone know what the 'Grapeshot' attack values are for Leather Cannons (as per Proto file). Has a lower range, lower damage cap, low area of effect:

<ProtoAction>
<Name>CannonAttack</Name>
<Damage>20.000000</Damage>
<DamageType>Siege</DamageType>
<MinRange>0.000000</MinRange>
<MaxRange>22.000000</MaxRange>
<ROF>2.000000</ROF>
<DamageCap>40.000000</DamageCap>
<DamageArea>3.000000</DamageArea>
<DamageFlags>GAIAEnemy</DamageFlags>
<DamageBonus>5.000000</DamageBonus>
<DamageBonus>3.500000</DamageBonus>
<DamageBonus>2.800000</DamageBonus>
<DamageBonus>0.500000</DamageBonus>
</ProtoAction>


<ProtoAction>
<Name>GrapeshotAttack</Name>
<Damage>4.000000</Damage>
<DamageType>Siege</DamageType>
<MinRange>0.000000</MinRange>
<MaxRange>18.000000</MaxRange>
<ROF>2.000000</ROF>
<DamageCap>8.000000</DamageCap>
<DamageArea>2.000000</DamageArea>
<DamageFlags>GAIAEnemy</DamageFlags>
<DamageBonus>5.000000</DamageBonus>
<DamageBonus>3.500000</DamageBonus>
<DamageBonus>2.800000</DamageBonus>
<DamageBonus>0.500000</DamageBonus>
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:42 pm    Post subject:

There used to be a "Grapeshot Cannon" in earlier versions of NE. It's basically a cannon with a canister shot (comparable to a Shotgun). Technically it's an AOE attack mode for artillery. So that's what the Leather Cannon can or was imagined to be able to do. I intend to reintroduce that at some later version.


If I may ask, stubbo, do you think the counters you have found make the Leather Cannons look less OP or is it still a pain in the ass which should be addressed in the next version?
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stubbo
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:42 pm    Post subject:

To be honest I won't truly know until I play with my mates as have only simulated thus far, but it now seems that they are fairly easy countered in terms of a one unit type versus another unit type. Grenadiers, Skirmishers, and Dragoons all win out at a basic level against them.

I think though that the Cannon is a strange mix in terms of what it is effective against (and from a historical perspective just how effective it was).

Based on some basic research I've done two things stand out:

- It lacked endurance as a viable weapon due to the barrel distorting - in this way a good nerf might be to make it expire like Minute Men do so the longer on the field it is the less use it is/more vulnerable...see article below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leather_cannon

- It would lack power unless at very close range (see experiment done in Mythbuster show: http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/leather-cannon-lethality/)

So my two suggestions would be to significanctly reduce the range effectiveness and the damage multipliers, and do something about it's durability (although low hit points are doing that, but historically it's durability issue relates to it's construction more so than vulnerability to attack). This is more about historical accuracy though than it is about it being OP.

Also it would seem strange paradox to me that Lange Kerls/Grenadiers/Skirmishers would be effective at not being killed by it, where as Musketeers get minced (they are both essentially men on foot afterall, neither to my knowledge with particularly strong armour, and can engage from the same range).

From it's "current OP'd-ness" perspective, I'd suggest that it's about realising that you need to use units with ranged resistance not affected by it's multipliers. I know suspect they will be pretty easy to counter since I know what to use against them.

Grenadiers/Lange Kerls seem to be the most effective against it, and 5 vs 5, the Grenadiers totally own the Leather Cannons (when neither are upgraded - I've not tested with both being fully upgraded). Dragoons also demolish the cannons 5 vs 5, and Skirmishers 10 vs 5 (for equivalent armies) also win out, although only just).

Given it's low hit points the key thing is using a unit against it that has Ranged Resistance more so than a bonus against Artillery.

Whether it should be discarded...the history in that Wiki article (and the evidence in the mythbusters experiment) seem to suggest it wasn't a very effective or long lived weapon (and thus it being so effective in NE is a historical inaccuracy, and I know you're well against those) so I think it could stay but it's effectiveness would need redefining to being only really effective against lightly armoured units at significantly closer range (so maybe shifting the bonuses to being against the very units that currently counter it but reducing the range of the cannon to the point that it can be outranged by them and to be effective it needs to be got up close), and maybe doing something about it's inherent durability (irrespective of whether attacked or not).

If that reduces it to the point of not being worth having (and it seems in history it was a short lived experiment) then maybe it would be best removed....or repurposed as a Grasshopper Cannon and given to the Brits?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grasshopper_cannon
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caveman909
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: How to counter Swedish Bronze Cannon/Musketeer assault?

stubbo wrote:
What units are best to counter this?

Seems very little can counter a mass of these little cannons! The game doesn't show their range or vulnerability in the advanced stats for the unit.

Help! Smile


You take sweden, take culverins and you beat the shit out of him lol
If you're not sweden, make a mix between goons/heavy cav.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:55 pm    Post subject:

Thanks a lot for the constructive post, stubbo! Smile I did spotlight this thread on our facebook channel (click) and the responses confirm my intention to replace the Leather Cannon with a civ-wide artillery bonus instead. I also have already plans to re-use the design at other places in the mod.

Laming with it is only fun as long as you are doing it. The remarks regarding the highly unrealistic and ahistorical format of this unit conform with all my concerns I have always had about it. So, even though there seem to be viable ways to counter them, I'll most likely drop it in the next release because it simply doesn't fit the NE philosophy of design.

I must say I like your idea about a HP-losing cannon and I've already sketched a unit. Mr. Green The Grasshopper cannon was also an interesting, inspiring read for me, which I saved for later considerations (for the Brits indeed). Smile
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stubbo
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:35 pm    Post subject:

No worries.

Nice to have been able to contribute something potentially of value.
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