Koreans/Joseons

 
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GoTDTruth
Prussian Landwehr
Prussian Landwehr


Joined: 31 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:59 am    Post subject: Koreans/Joseons

Koreans/Joseon
Kingdom of Joseon (1392–1897) [or Joseon Dynasty]

Possible Personalities:
Sejong the Great - (1418-1450) most important King of Joseon but not in time period.
Yeongjo - (1724-1776) notable for policy of balancing factions "Tangpyeong", tax reform, and revitalizing the economy.

Capital: Hanseong (present day Seoul)
Defensive/Naval

During the Joseon period (1392–1897) Korea had very long periods of peace. Generally their military played a defensive role of defending against raiders from the northern frontier or controlling the pirates at sea. Even at the northern frontier hill forts were used to defend local population. At sea the Korean Navy was relatively advanced cannon and tactics (compared to pirates or even Japanese)

Civ Bonus: Seowon generate XP, units near castles receive attack/denfense bonus (similar to Daimyo, basically simulating garrisoning) Houses can auto generate food when tasked with herdables and mining less profitable by default.(10% less? may need balancing)

Joseon Economics:
Joseon economy focused on food production mainly through rice paddies. So much so that during times of peace its population boomed. During the Joseon period, economic policy focused less on the production of luxury goods and trade from the Silk Road had slowed greatly. Mining was almost nonexistent and highly taxed. Silver needed to trade with China was mostly obtained with trade from Japan. Lumber was not an issue, although deforestation in certain regions became an issue by the 19th century. fishing and whaling are both very profitable for the Koreans (some of the oldest evidence of whaling comes from Korea).

Land Military Gameplay Theory:
Koreans can use large armies of long range Archers/Infantry to destroy the enemy from a distance. However, they will require their slow moving artillery to quickly destroy enemy buildings. The main weakness of this army of weak long range Infantry/Artillery will be cavalry (and cannon assuming your archers are in a large group). To defend against enemy cavalry Koreans have cavalry with bonuses against other cavalry and artillery.

Early game Castles provide offensive/defense bonus aura (and later a small heal) to promote Korean’s long range defensive gameplay and make early game rushes against the Koreans hard without some kind of cavalry or artillery.

Units

Explorer: Seon Monk (using Taekkyeon), Meditation ability: no attack stance that allows health regen.

Seon Monks can auto generate health with meditation and heal nearby units as well (while meditating, with meditation upgrade from monastery). Seon Monks with proper upgrade (HC card “Righteous Army”) can also provide and offensive bonus to nearby units. (Note: possibility to produce more than one monk and no defensive bonus) This would allow the Korean civ’s mass of archers/muskets to still have an attack bonus when making an offensive attack mid/late game. This would also make Seon Monks more important late game after most treasures are collected. (Similar to the artillery aura for European civs)

Sad Sadly, I am unaware as to what specific names these troops were given. However, I have found this site that gives names for individual weapons http://www.thefullwiki.org/Muye24gi

Infantry
Spearman
http://postfiles13.naver.net/20110914_76/dnjscjf1717_1315987593961CU5aF_JPEG/%C1%B6%BC%B1%C1%DF%B1%E2_%B9%AB%B1%E2%2C%B0%A9%BF%CA.jpg?type=w1
Note: Jangchang (long spear) and Dangpa (trident)
Dangpa (trident) could be a tech/HC card that benefits spearmen (increase hp and bonus damage against cavalry?)
cost: 50f 30w

Gakgung Archer. Cheap, Long Range Archers

Gakgung is the name of the traditional Korean reflex bow. apparently it translates directly to "nation bow". I'm pretty sure Gungdo is simply the art of using the Gakgung. Gungdo archery.
Archers should be the main unit of the Korean army for most of a game. With Pyeonjeon they would have very long range (350m)
possible stats:
cost: 80f 20w
hitpoints: 80
range: 20? (attack multipliers: x2.5 heavy inf, x1.5 light cav, x0.75 cav)
base ranged attack: 12 (weak, best used in large groups or in castle aura)
(note: with Pyeonjeon range should be equal or greater than the English longbow and the arrows would travel at a much higher velocity(range:26+?))
concept: base range 20 + 3 (Gungdo) + 6 (Pyeonjeon)= 29 range
resist: 30% rng
seige attack: 10
melee attack: 7

Korean Musketeer "Chongbyeong"

during the 17th century Koreans did adopted the Arquebus. Korean arquebus actually became very well know there ability in China. Arquebusiers, would do more damage than archers but with far shorter range. they should also have the normal melee melee multiplier against cavalry making them easier to defend. Apparently, the use of firearms by the Japanese in the Imjin war was a critical turning point and by the mid 18th century the majority of the Joseon army was equipt with muskets more than any other east Asian power.
cost: 80f 20c
HitPoints: 160
range: 12
ranged Attack: 20
seige attack: 20
melee: 10 (attack multi: 3x cav, 2x light inf)
Tiger killers – (HC card?) increase musketeers ranged attack +20%
Chunbochong - (HC card?) increase musketeer range (+2?)

Hand Cannon “seungja-chongtong” 16th century
https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a351294ef5538ba811188edb472707b8?convert_to_webp=true

Cavarly
Korean Cav Archer and Danchang Cavalry

I don't know much about Korean cavalry, but these would have been elite units. Korea did not invest much into its land based forces during this time. Its military was not seen with the same level of respect as it was in Japan.
Danchang cavalry- (단창기병) (Danchanggibyeong if you prefer) = (단창 translates directly to short spear) but it is known as danchang for korean martial arts. damage multiplier against other cavalry
cost: 120f 80c
HitPoints: 280
resist: 30% range
melee Attack: 22 (attack multiplier: x1.5 cav, x1.5 inf, x0.7 heavy inf)
seige attack: 20

Cavalry Archer - (기병궁수) Gibyeong Gungsu (both singular and plural) light “Manchu” like cavarly. damage multiplier against cavalry/artillery
cost: 90f 90c
HitPoints: 220
resist: 40% range
range: 16
ranged Attack: 12 (attack multiplier: 4x artillery, 3x cav, 0.5 vil)
seige attack: 10

Pyeongon Rider (편곤기병 Pyeongongibyeong) 17th century Korean heavy cavalry with two-handed flails (Pyeongon)

cost: 140f 100c
HitPoints: 320
resist: 30% range
melee Attack: 24 (attack multiplier: x2 artillery, x1.5 inf, x0.7 heavy inf)
seige attack: 20


Artillery
“chongtong” Cannon 16th century. slow cannon with decent range


“wan'gu” Mortar 16th century. very slow with great range and great bonus against buildings, ships. (similar to Morutaru or hand mortar. In fact, read the "history" description for them http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Morutaru and http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Hand_Mortar)

Hwacha artillery, defensive, anti-ship/infintry

long range area damage? Available early game with bonus against infantry, also (ships and buildings? But maybe only after research for Singijeon “fire arrows”)

Turtle ship (or Geobukseon) fast, high health/armor?, short range (usually used in tactic of ramming)


Both the Hwacha and the Turtle Ship would have been used in the 15th and 16th centuries. In particular, both of these are seen as playing an important role in the Imjin War (1592-1598). After this both would have continued to be used, but hundreds of years of relative peace makes it hard to guess their service life. The AOE2 Turtle ship is based on the Turtle ships used in the Imjin War. I've seen various images of old drawings and even modern replicas of Turtle Ships. I'd say that they would look very similar of to the AOE2 version. (but with masts)

Panokseon- a multi-floored ship that used oars and sails

should fill the role of European Galleon. (high HP, creates units)

Buildings

Wonders
1. Changdeokgung or any concept from one of the "Five Grand Palaces" Bonus: military? ships a number of cavalry units (based on age)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti5pdwlA1a4

2. Jongmyo Shrine (1394) (confucian) Bonus: economic? shipment of gold (based on age)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA-D8Kyr900

3. Hwaseong Fortress (1796) Bonus:castle, fortress damage and range increased. ships number of castle rickshaws (based on age)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vblHS5IX-44

4. Bongeun-sa (Seon Buddhist) Bonus: explorer, monk hp greatly increased
(Songgwangsa doesn't fit as well in time period)
http://www.wingsunfurled-web.com/asie/coree_sud/seoul/temple_bongeunsa/images/temple-bongeunsa-00200.jpg
https://twosorethumbs.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/bongeunsa-temple-4-buddha-statue-with-monks.jpg
layout

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://tong.visitkorea.or.kr/cms/resource/49/1954549_image2_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://english.visitkorea.or.kr/enu/SI/SI_EN_3_1_1_1.jsp?cid%3D264594&h=466&w=699&tbnid=3MMBtffrLp4FAM:&docid=rEqcBqESP_-voM&ei=dSdGVoqCD8Pt-QHsgZWIDA&tbm=isch&ved=0CEUQMygTMBNqFQoTCMqQ07z_jckCFcN2Pgod7EAFwQ

5. Sungkyunkwan (university) Bonus: Hyanggyo and Seowon x2 XP generation. ships number of villagers (based on age)
http://blog.korea.net/?p=20476


Hanok – (house) house that allows 10 population and can generate food when tasked with cattle. (20 build limit. 1 cattle per house?)

Note: Gwageo = “national civil service examinations” basically required for any position of rank.

Seowon - mid/late Joseon private schools to prep for Gwageo. Auto generate XP (5 build limit)
cost: 125w 50c
upgrades:
Hangul (Korean alphabet) (1443) - increased XP generation (I) cost: 100f
Hyanggyo (government schools) - increased XP generation (II) cost: 100w
Metal Movable type - increased XP generation (III) cost: 100c
Silhak (Confucian reformist movement) - allows construction of additional Seowon (III) cost: 250f 250w
Seodang (elementary school) - allows construction of additional Seowon (IV) cost: 250w 250c

Possibly HC card
Hyangyak (decree allowing local government) - Seowon cost less and have more hp.

Market - unique techs
Hunting dogs/falconry - Villagers gather Food from hunted animals 10% faster.
Rain Gauges (or simply "Cheugugi") - Villagers gather Food from rice paddies 10% faster.

Monastery- (During much of the Joseon period, monks and nuns were banned from cities, and monasteries were in the mountains. not sure what to do about this. maybe just leave as a historical inconsistency? technically your monk/explorer wont spend much time near your city anyway.)
Techs:
Hua Tou - monk self-heal +100% faster, heals nearby units
Tripitaka Koreana - increases monk hp +100%
Jogye order - Monk Attack and hp increased?
"Righteous Monk" movement (tech description below)

Castles -
Rice paddy-

Consulate-
Early Isolationism "hermit kingdom" - Castle rickshaws
China - Silk Road – Export or Coin trickle?
Japan - Red Seal Ship - shipment, all the player's Export is traded for a greater amount of Coin
Portuguese - (Hongyipao, cannon 12cm caliber cannon from Portuguese)
Note: I do believe that the Dutch or Russians could make sense as well, and would probably balance better than Portuguese. (NO European nation had formal relations with Korea, what little relations did occur were with private individuals mostly Korea acquiring Portuguese or Dutch cannon; and even there the history is sketchy at best. Korea did have some amount of "formal" contact with Russia in war and presumably continued to mirror China's relations with them)

Techs or HC cards
Gihae Eastern Expedition- (1419) ships naval units (lower tier)
Nongsa jikseol (published 1429)(again in 1492/1656/1686)("Straight Talk on Farming") food production bonus
Metal Movable type - benefit for Hyanggyo and Seowon (Hyanggyo & Seowon)
Hangul (Korean alphabet) (1443) - increased literacy (benefit Hyanggyo & Seowon)
Gyeongguk Daejeon (Grand Code for State Administration) (1485) early form of constitutional law
Northern Frontier - (“four forts and six posts") Shipment of 2 castle rickshaws, castles get +4 LOS and Range
Samin Policy - (사민정책) forced migration of korean population north to support defense of northern border. castles cost -50% wood/coin, build faster?
Hyangyak - (1506–1544) decree allowing local government. Hyanggyo & Seowon cost less and have more hp.
"Righteous Monk" movement - (1592-1598) Seon Monks gain aura that provides and offensive bonus to nearby units. sends an additional Seon Monk
Admiral Yi Sun-sin - provides shipment of Turtle ships or ship bonus
Crane Wing Formation - provides ship bonuses (ship formation devised by Admiral Yi)
Tiger killers – (17th century) increase arquebusiers/musketeers ranged attack
Muyejebo (1610) the oldest extant Korean martial arts manual. military units train 15% faster
Dongui Bogam (1613) book of Korean traditional medicine. Castle aura heal units.
Naseon Jeongbeol (1654-1658) ships army of Arquebusiers
daedongbeop – (1660)(Uniform Land Tax Law) additional land tax proposed by Kim Yuk. all coin collected faster?
Taekkyeon games (18th century) ships a Dojang
Tangpyeong - (1700s)("Magnificent Harmony") policy of maintaining balance and equality between political factions. HC shipments arrive much faster
Muyesinbo (1759)(or Muyeshinbo, "new compendium of martial arts") Barracks units train 10% faster and cost 20% less
Muyedobotongji (1790)("Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts") (unlike other martial arts manuals, it includes techniques for use on horseback) stable units train 10% faster and cost 20% less
Chunbochong - (18th century) longer range musket.increase musketeer range (+2?)
Gyujanggak - (1776) Royal Library

Thunder crash bomb - area damage for mortars
https://books.google.com/books?id=YwLtVGpq3nUC&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=chinese+flying+thunder+bomb+korean&source=bl&ots=Nis_lfCdaZ&sig=TdpbOGZAuZQr-12jx5us4iS_KxU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDAQ6AEwA2oVChMI07i92_3vyAIVQzs-Ch2_rg-e#v=onepage&q=chinese%20flying%20thunder%20clap%20bomb%20korean&f=false

Gungdo (“way of the bow”) – Villagers get +200% ranged damage and increased range. (Gakgung archers +3 range/LOS) interestingly Japanese already get a HC called "way of the bow" that benefits Yumi Archers

The government of Joseon era was extremely bureaucratic and often hindered by political factionalism.
Sarim - Neo-confucian
Silhak - Confucian reformist movement

possible links of interest
http://blog.naver.com/dnjscjf1717
http://www.koreansentry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2679
http://historum.com/asian-history/74341-joseon-military-18th-century.html
http://www.topicsinkoreanhistory.com/2012/12/07/the-black-water-dragon-i/
https://www.quora.com/Why-didnt-the-Koreans-have-guns-in-the-late-1500s-while-the-Japanese-did
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseon#Middle_Joseon_period
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gakgung
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_cannon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_martial_arts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8TNNremn54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvZ2EeeUxFA
http://www.munmu.fr/pages/histoire/artefacts-historiques/armes-individuelles-traditionnelles.html
http://www.thefullwiki.org/Muye24gi
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:28 pm    Post subject:

Hey GoTDTruth, thanks for the post. I scanned it entirely and transferred the data into a quickly made internal civ outline. Here some questions (I'm in a hurry, lol):

1. What would be the name for both, a single and multiple..:
a) Gakgung Archer
b) Korean Arquebusier/Musketeer (ideally a native word)
c) Lancer
d) Cav Archer

2. Would Joseons also get a Fune at Docks? What about Monitors?
3. What's Seon?
4. What's a Dojang? A Joseon Dojo?
5. Could you explain these government and private schools a bit more in detail? I generally prefer merging similar buildings into one. So I'd like to make some sort of "School". What'd be the effects you imagined?
6. I'm not sure if we could do wonders, it might not feel very intuivite. If you had to do politicians. What would they be?
7. Is "Masang Pyeongon" a good name for a single two-handed flail rider?
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GoTDTruth
Prussian Landwehr
Prussian Landwehr


Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:39 pm    Post subject:

I am going to attempt to update my first post with information from posts to keep it up to date.

Quote:
1. What would be the name for both, a single and multiple..:
a) Gakgung Archer
b) Korean Arquebusier/Musketeer (ideally a native word)
c) Lancer
d) Cav Archer

Gibyeong <- cavalry
Archer = 궁수 = Gungsu (both singular and plural)
still uncertain about using Gakgung in the name with archer (might be better to use Gakgung Archer)
Arquebusier is just Arquebusier
Musketeer = 총병 = chongbyeong
Musketeers = 총사 = chongsa
Lancer = 단창기병 = danchang cavalry (danchanggibyeong if you prefer) = (단창 translates directly to short spear) but it is known as danchang for korean martial arts.
Cavalry Archer = 기병궁수 = Gibyeong Gungsu (both singular and plural)
cavalry unit using Pyeongon (flail) = 편곤기병 = Pyeongongibyeong

plural for Pyeongongibyeong and Danchanggibyeong, is complicated. you would have to phrase it like 편곤기병 부대 = Pyeongongibyeong budae = Pyeongongibyeong troops


Quote:
2. Would Joseons also get a Fune at Docks? What about Monitors?

This was not an easy question to answer. Fune is not the actual name for that ship and I’m not sure where that name comes from. That ship is called a Bezaisen, which is a traditional Japanese ship. However, I have read that the ship was common across Asian and that China, Korea, and Japan possibly influence each other on ship building. I think that Korean “Caravel” would be like the Chinese war junk, but with only 2 sails. I think the ship would be called a Bigeodo.
http://www.shipwreckasia.org/wp-content/uploads/FU-South-East-Asia-Archaeology-Brochure.pdf
Monitors.... not sure. maybe not, maybe we can assume it is replaced with Turtle ship. it did have an effective range of 500 meters (not sure if that helps). also, a small cannon "hwangja-chongtong" could be fit into the dragons head. the hwangja-chongtong had a range of 1200meters, but i doubt that is an effective range (especially at sea).

Quote:
3. What's Seon?

Seon is the basically the same as Zen Buddhism in Japan, but in Korea Razz

Quote:
4. What's a Dojang? A Joseon Dojo?

Dojang = Dojo. But Korean, and for traditional Korean martial arts. Also Korean Razz

Quote:
5. Could you explain these government and private schools a bit more in detail? I generally prefer merging similar buildings into one. So I'd like to make some sort of "School". What'd be the effects you imagined?

Okay, this is part of my imagined Joseon civ bonus and I will attempt to explain the concept and why I came to this conclusion. Note that I am not exactly sure what is possible or feasible with the game. lol

Hyanggyo (government schools of early and mid Joseon period) would act as houses and provide small trickle of XP generation per Hyanggyo (similar to Japanese Shrines). Researching techs at these houses will increase the XP generation of these school. This simulates the importance of the Gwageo “national civil service examinations” and the Joseon government’s investment into the schools to educate its population.

In the Mid to late Joseon period private schools known as Seowon run by wealthy individual became more popular. These “houses” would be larger (like the dutch bank) and (also?) provide auto generation for wood, food, or gold (selectable). The seowon would benefit from all/most research from Hyanggyo.
Possible costs:
Hyanggyo: 125 wood
Seowon: 300 wood, 100 gold

Quote:
6. I'm not sure if we could do wonders, it might not feel very intuivite. If you had to do politicians. What would they be?

I think it would make the most sense to have wonders for Korea. All other east Asian Civs have wonders as well as India. However, to answer your question I will provide a concept for politicians.
Politicians:
Discovery: Western Sarim (gold?) & Eastern Sarim (food?)
Colonial: Prime Minister & Inspector General
Fortress: General & Admiral?
Industrial: King & Sage?

Quote:
7. Is "Masang Pyeongon" a good name for a single two-handed flail rider?

Not sure (refer to 1. Razz)
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GoTDTruth
Prussian Landwehr
Prussian Landwehr


Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:00 am    Post subject:

I have come to a problem with my concept for the Joseon civ. There is currently no building to make use of livestock. So, my proposal is to simply separate the Joseon educational institutions from houses. The Joseon houses with be like regular houses but called “Hanok”, which will able to be tasked with livestock. Tasking livestock to a Hanok will provide a small auto-generation of food.

Historically, meat such as beef and pork were eaten in Korea, but this was seen as a delicacy for wealthy individuals or special occasions. Cattle was mostly seen as a draft animal and critical part of farming. Cattle and was kept at home in the “sarangchae” (guest house) and seen a servant or even part of the family. Breeding cattle for beef was not banned in the Joseon, in fact it was promoted since the 18th century.
http://jet.wherefoodcomesfrom.com/article/8515/Korean-Cuisine-Beef-Chicken-Pork#.VkPRgb-zYnl

my new concept for houses, educational institutions:
Hanok – (house) house that allows 10 population and can generate food when tasked with cattle. (20 build limit. 1 cattle per house?)
Hyanggyo - early/mid Joseon government schools to prep for Gwageo. Auto generate XP (5 build limit)
Seowon - mid/late Joseon private schools to prep for Gwageo Auto generate XP and resoures (3 build limit)
Note: Gwageo = “national civil service examinations” basically required for any position of rank.

Building costs, Build limits, and resource generation rates would just need to be balanced differently.
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Firestorm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:04 am    Post subject:

In general it looks good Smile But there are still many details to be fixed. First I agree with you about Koreans needing wonders but sadly making them is one of the hardest things in AoE 3 modding Sad Regarding the Consulate, I think there's no need using the Portuguese, already in use at Japan and India, and maybe Russia would be a better option. Also Russia's consulate techs are very powerful. But eventually the consulate allies will be re-worked in the future. Personally I think that TAD civs has nothing to do with NE, so there's no need to stricktly keep them on 1500-1815, I mean a few escapes to the rule could be good, like introducing an American consulate option for either Japan or Korea. Regarding houses, I don't know it can be coded but I prefer the idea of houses who support more population. We can call them pavillions and grant them a bonus. I don't know if it could be good to make a special stable for the Koreans which acts also as an livestock pen (like the US one). Can you find a name for it? Because animals at the houses is already covered with both China and Japan. Also, keep it up mate Wink I'm very involved on NE Asian civs, including Persia, also I'm trying to convince Tilanus to expand the mod with non-european stuff. Well, this will be hard but hopefully not impossible.
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GoTDTruth
Prussian Landwehr
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:57 am    Post subject:

Quote:
In general it looks good Smile But there are still many details to be fixed.

Thanks, just let me know if I can help with anything.

Quote:
I agree with you about Koreans needing wonders but sadly making them is one of the hardest things in AoE 3 modding

Well I wish I knew more about modding AOEIII, if I can help with anything such as pictures in this regard I will do my best.

Quote:
Regarding the Consulate, I think there's no need using the Portuguese, already in use at Japan and India, and maybe Russia would be a better option.

I was thinking about Russian, Dutch, and the US as alternatives. But any official relations wouldn’t occur until late 19th century. Throughout the later Joseon period various cases of Dutch sailors in Korea have occurred but these were usually private sailors shipwrecking trying to get to Japan. Russia would also make a lot of sense because Koreans had a lot more contact with Russia than any other European power, but most of these were hostile with Korea siding with China. (note: defiant leaders from the Joseon era sided with Russia while under Japanese rule in the late 19th and early 20th century). Finally, the US was probably the first European country to establish formal relations with Joseon Korea in 1882.

Quote:
I don't know if it could be good to make a special stable for the Koreans which acts also as an livestock pen (like the US one). Can you find a name for it? Because animals at the houses is already covered with both China and Japan.

I’ve been trying to find information about livestock/ranching in the Joseon period but it’s very scarce. Like I mentioned before, production of cattle was promoted in 18th century Joseon Korea. But I can find any sources referencing ranches. So it’s possible this was all done on a small scale on local residence, which is why i proposed normal houses with uses for herdables.

Quote:
keep it up mate I'm very involved on NE Asian civs, including Persia, also I'm trying to convince Tilanus to expand the mod with non-european stuff. Well, this will be hard but hopefully not impossible.

One of my favorite things about NE is that it expands on the original concepts of AOEIII. Vanilla AOEIII focused too much on the Americas and not enough on the rest of the world. TAD was a nice break from that and eventually NE even more so. Personally, I think AOE in general has always been a game that feature civs from across the globe, so I’m just glad to see NE trying to fill in the gaps.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:50 pm    Post subject:

GoTDTruth wrote:
I have come to a problem with my concept for the Joseon civ. There is currently no building to make use of livestock. So, my proposal is to simply separate the Joseon educational institutions from houses. The Joseon houses with be like regular houses but called “Hanok”, which will able to be tasked with livestock. Tasking livestock to a Hanok will provide a small auto-generation of food.

Historically, meat such as beef and pork were eaten in Korea, but this was seen as a delicacy for wealthy individuals or special occasions. Cattle was mostly seen as a draft animal and critical part of farming. Cattle and was kept at home in the “sarangchae” (guest house) and seen a servant or even part of the family. Breeding cattle for beef was not banned in the Joseon, in fact it was promoted since the 18th century.
http://jet.wherefoodcomesfrom.com/article/8515/Korean-Cuisine-Beef-Chicken-Pork#.VkPRgb-zYnl

my new concept for houses, educational institutions:
Hanok – (house) house that allows 10 population and can generate food when tasked with cattle. (20 build limit. 1 cattle per house?)

I'd actually have said with a couple of exceptions that the consumption of meat and partially also the right to hunt were privileges of the nobility for a long time in many places in the world, also in Europe. So to me it doesn't look as uncommon, which makes me just wonder a bit why Joseons in particular should get livestock pens in all of their houses? You said you didn't find much evidence for a large-scaled livestock economy. Anyway, technically it'd not be a problem. I'd also have no problem to use a building from any other civs (i.e. Shrine, Village) if it makes historically more sense. They could also just get a Livestock Pen with Asian design. There's absolutely no need to force a unique system on the very basic concepts just for the sake of uniqueness. Smile

Quote:
Hyanggyo - early/mid Joseon government schools to prep for Gwageo. Auto generate XP (5 build limit)
Seowon - mid/late Joseon private schools to prep for Gwageo Auto generate XP and resoures (3 build limit)
Note: Gwageo = “national civil service examinations” basically required for any position of rank.

I'm still dumb about this. Has this been an important thing to Joseons that makes them kinda unique or do you just like school? Devil

Quote:
Okay, this is part of my imagined Joseon civ bonus and I will attempt to explain the concept and why I came to this conclusion. Note that I am not exactly sure what is possible or feasible with the game. lol

Hyanggyo (government schools of early and mid Joseon period) would act as houses and provide small trickle of XP generation per Hyanggyo (similar to Japanese Shrines). Researching techs at these houses will increase the XP generation of these school. This simulates the importance of the Gwageo “national civil service examinations” and the Joseon government’s investment into the schools to educate its population.

In the Mid to late Joseon period private schools known as Seowon run by wealthy individual became more popular. These “houses” would be larger (like the dutch bank) and (also?) provide auto generation for wood, food, or gold (selectable). The seowon would benefit from all/most research from Hyanggyo.
Possible costs:
Hyanggyo: 125 wood
Seowon: 300 wood, 100 gold

Okay, so I've just read the wikipedia article on the Gwageo and am still uncertain whether it's "a thing" or just a very ordinary, common Asian education and career system. So could you maybe put it in a context and explain its significance for Korea? I've read that it increasingly became a corrupt system, which generally tend to be less effective in for what they were originally designed.

I repeat my comment again, seeing how you imagine it to work it's basically a Shrine with slightly modified stats. So why not just use a Shrine and provide some unique "School" building upgrades for it?

GoTDTruth wrote:
I am going to attempt to update my first post with information from posts to keep it up to date.

Quote:
1. What would be the name for both, a single and multiple..:
a) Gakgung Archer
b) Korean Arquebusier/Musketeer (ideally a native word)
c) Lancer
d) Cav Archer

Gibyeong <- cavalry
Archer = 궁수 = Gungsu (both singular and plural)
still uncertain about using Gakgung in the name with archer (might be better to use Gakgung Archer)
Arquebusier is just Arquebusier
Musketeer = 총병 = chongbyeong
Musketeers = 총사 = chongsa
Lancer = 단창기병 = danchang cavalry (danchanggibyeong if you prefer) = (단창 translates directly to short spear) but it is known as danchang for korean martial arts.
Cavalry Archer = 기병궁수 = Gibyeong Gungsu (both singular and plural)
cavalry unit using Pyeongon (flail) = 편곤기병 = Pyeongongibyeong

plural for Pyeongongibyeong and Danchanggibyeong, is complicated. you would have to phrase it like 편곤기병 부대 = Pyeongongibyeong budae = Pyeongongibyeong troops

Thanks for the clarification on singular and plural forms. Smile I updated my internal civ outline. Since some words get incredibly lengthy when transcripted or are just to complicated for foreigners I decided for a mix of Korean and English, i.e. Gakgung Archer, Pyeongon Rider, Gungsu Horseman, Danchang Cavalry, etc. Hope that works. Smile

Quote:
This was not an easy question to answer. Fune is not the actual name for that ship and I’m not sure where that name comes from. That ship is called a Bezaisen, which is a traditional Japanese ship. However, I have read that the ship was common across Asian and that China, Korea, and Japan possibly influence each other on ship building. I think that Korean “Caravel” would be like the Chinese war junk, but with only 2 sails. I think the ship would be called a Bigeodo.
http://www.shipwreckasia.org/wp-content/uploads/FU-South-East-Asia-Archaeology-Brochure.pdf
Monitors.... not sure. maybe not, maybe we can assume it is replaced with Turtle ship. it did have an effective range of 500 meters (not sure if that helps). also, a small cannon "hwangja-chongtong" could be fit into the dragons head. the hwangja-chongtong had a range of 1200meters, but i doubt that is an effective range (especially at sea).

Interesting, Bezaisen and Bigeodo, gotta keep that in mind. I'd agree to merge the Monitor functionality with either of the 2 big Korean ships. Turtle ship seems odd considering it's covered and designed for close combat.

What speaks against using the Chinese War Junk right away? Are there any notable characteristics of the Bigeodo that make you think it has to be an own unit?
(except for being Korean Devil )

Quote:
Quote:
3. What's Seon?

Seon is the basically the same as Zen Buddhism in Japan, but in Korea Razz

Quote:
4. What's a Dojang? A Joseon Dojo?

Dojang = Dojo. But Korean, and for traditional Korean martial arts. Also Korean Razz

I would like to avoid hairsplitting especially for things that essentially the same, so Zen and Dojo is pretty fine. Razz

Quote:
Quote:
6. I'm not sure if we could do wonders, it might not feel very intuivite. If you had to do politicians. What would they be?

I think it would make the most sense to have wonders for Korea. All other east Asian Civs have wonders as well as India. However, to answer your question I will provide a concept for politicians.
Politicians:
Discovery: Western Sarim (gold?) & Eastern Sarim (food?)
Colonial: Prime Minister & Inspector General
Fortress: General & Admiral?
Industrial: King & Sage?

The Persians and in some way the Ottomans are also Asian civs that work without wonders. It's not a must. I can imagine ways to connect wonders with age-ups or use wonders as separate buildings. It's just that all of these solutions still needs age-up effects. Whether you display a politician or a wonder only makes a semantic difference. So to be able to implement anything like of the politicians and/or wonders, we need:
  • Names
  • Pictures
  • Age-up effects
  • Historical background

Would be great if you could provide these! Smile

GoTDTruth wrote:
Well I wish I knew more about modding AOEIII, if I can help with anything such as pictures in this regard I will do my best.

What sort of creative and/or computer skills do you possess? Maybe there's an open position that interests you: http://www.ne.elpea.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1439#115280

Quote:
Quote:
Regarding the Consulate, I think there's no need using the Portuguese, already in use at Japan and India, and maybe Russia would be a better option.

I was thinking about Russian, Dutch, and the US as alternatives. But any official relations wouldn’t occur until late 19th century. Throughout the later Joseon period various cases of Dutch sailors in Korea have occurred but these were usually private sailors shipwrecking trying to get to Japan. Russia would also make a lot of sense because Koreans had a lot more contact with Russia than any other European power, but most of these were hostile with Korea siding with China. (note: defiant leaders from the Joseon era sided with Russia while under Japanese rule in the late 19th and early 20th century). Finally, the US was probably the first European country to establish formal relations with Joseon Korea in 1882.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with Firestorm's idea here. I'll not bend the timeline for this. Koreans can get a consulate-like system, but it doesn't need to be called "Consulate". For China someone in our team came up with an alternative consulate that is more of a diplomatic center allowing to open relations to the neighbouring countries. So, Russia, China and what else makes sense in Joseon history from 1500-1815/1825. If Portuguese were prominent, I'd still use them, no matter how frequent they are already used elsewhere.

Quote:
Quote:
keep it up mate I'm very involved on NE Asian civs, including Persia, also I'm trying to convince Tilanus to expand the mod with non-european stuff. Well, this will be hard but hopefully not impossible.

One of my favorite things about NE is that it expands on the original concepts of AOEIII. Vanilla AOEIII focused too much on the Americas and not enough on the rest of the world. TAD was a nice break from that and eventually NE even more so. Personally, I think AOE in general has always been a game that feature civs from across the globe, so I’m just glad to see NE trying to fill in the gaps.

Ha, Firestorm doesn't need to convince me to expand NE with more non-european stuff since I wanna do that already. Razz I'm still quite glad to hear though that you appreciate the greater focus on Europe in NE. =)

Firestorm wrote:
Personally I think that TAD civs has nothing to do with NE, so there's no need to stricktly keep them on 1500-1815

Please, what? bloody
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Firestorm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:35 pm    Post subject:

Quote:

Firestorm wrote:
Personally I think that TAD civs has nothing to do with NE, so there's no need to stricktly keep them on 1500-1815

Please, what? bloody





Please don't kill me Tilanus Mr. Green Since NE main focus are large scale conflicts like the seven years war and Napoleonic wars which mainly were European wars, that's why I wrote it. While these wars affected other continents as well, Britain and France rivalry affected the Americas and India, on the other hand Russia's expansion on Central Asia and Siberia created them new conflicts with large Asian empires like China and Persia. Napoleon's continental system against Britain triggered a war between Americans and British in 1812. Finally, Napoleon's invasion of the Iberian peninsula triggered the revolutions in Latin America. All of this is or is going to be covered in different ways by this mod. But nothing of that affected the Far East. European and American presence on East Asia would increase after NE timeline(1815/1825). With closing an eye regarding China, Japan and Korea I meant allowing some consulate options that did happen a bit later like Russians for Korea (on the condition that they don't introduce communism and split Korea into two states Mr. Green ) and Americans for Japan (but no MacArthur and atomic bombs here Mr. Green )
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:27 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
I'd also have no problem to use a building from any other civs (i.e. Shrine, Village) if it makes historically more sense.

Quote:
I repeat my comment again, seeing how you imagine it to work it's basically a Shrine with slightly modified stats. So why not just use a Shrine and provide some unique "School" building upgrades for it?

Quote:
What speaks against using the Chinese War Junk right away? Are there any notable characteristics of the Bigeodo that make you think it has to be an own unit?

I would actually suggest using models from other civs and just change the name. The shrine is a great example, You could just use the Japanese shrine model (maybe minor changes) and call it a Hyanggyo. Take that model stretch it out a little and call it a Seowon. Take the Chinese war junk and rename it Bigeodo (again, maybe minor changes. Like 2 sails instead of 3). Could use the dojo model for the dojang and just change the name. (although, I’m doubting the dojang’s importance because of how little info I can find on Joseon training facilities. But I also can’t find much on Japanese dojos prior to late 19th century. May want to scrap the dojang concept)EDIT: if I misunderstood and you were asking why not just use the War Junk... I guess that would be fine, the only reason I suggest the name change to Bigeodo is because I am pretty sure that is what a ship of that size/character would have been called in the Korean Navy.
Quote:
I would like to avoid hairsplitting especially for things that essentially the same, so Zen and Dojo is pretty fine.

Hmm, I understand what you mean. But I would avoid calling Seon Buddhism and Zen Buddhism the same thing. It’s kind of like saying that Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy is the same thing XD sorta, but not really. Culturally they are different, and I’m sure that someone practicing one or the other would be offended by the assumption that they are the same.

Quote:
I'd agree to merge the Monitor functionality with either of the 2 big Korean ships. Turtle ship seems odd considering it's covered and designed for close combat.

From what I’ve watched/read about the Imjin War, Admiral Yi’s turtle ships were capable of firing upon Japanese ships from long range. Enough that the Japanese cannon couldn’t retaliate. Personally, I would suggest the turtle ship would have short range broadside attacks combine with a weak, long range front monitor shot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTan6eDphCk

Quote:
Okay, so I've just read the wikipedia article on the Gwageo and am still uncertain whether it's "a thing" or just a very ordinary, common Asian education and career system. So could you maybe put it in a context and explain its significance for Korea? I've read that it increasingly became a corrupt system, which generally tend to be less effective in for what they were originally designed.

I think you may be oversimplifying the gwageo. It’s true that it was extremely important for the upper “yangban” class to maintain status and obtain highest positions in government. It is also true that process of taking this exam would become corrupt and designed to favor the yangban entirely (specifically the higher literary portion which was critical for higher government office positions). However, the gwageo’s importance is much broader, it was required for ANY position of status. The military portions of the gwageo were require for all? military rank (maybe unless in time of conflict). Both upper and middle class individuals (male and female) practiced gungdo both as a kind of national pastime and because it was an important part of the gwageo. Also, although most of the exam focused on confusion text, it also promoted things such as the study of medicine, astronomy, and horsemanship.
Gwageo was an important part of Korea’s culture for over 1000 years and the importance of this kind of exam based education can still be seen in Korea’s culture today. For example, the Sungkyunkwan (national university) is not only an important part of the culture because it is one of the oldest universities in the world, but also because it played an important part in the country’s history. Many kings and those of the highest class attended and it was an important location various political factionalism. In multiple cases, students from entire political factions were “purged” from the university. Educational institutions were just as much an important part of the political factionalism and bureaucracy that Joseon was known for as it was an education and career system.

Quote:
So to be able to implement anything like of the politicians and/or wonders, we need:

Names
Pictures
Age-up effects
Historical background

I already posted wonder information on the original post. I will edit it with pictures/video/historical background.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:54 pm    Post subject:

I recall having read there were Warrior Monks during the Imjin war, I presume something could be worked off that?

Mostly because I guess that if you're gonna have Korea in Napoleonic Era you're gonna be work off the Imjin War more than anything since... there wasn't much else that happened between that time and the end of the period in Korea, militarily speaking of course. Just the Imjin War, the wars against the Jurchen and... dunno, the Gihae Eastern Expedition against the Pirates?

Anyways, back to the Imjin Wars, can you by chance find any information on "Dharma Master Hyujong"? I found a webpage that postulates him as the leader of the Monk Warrior resistance against the Japanese invasion, but given that the webpage is from the USA military, I have some hesitations regarding how accurate it may be.

For the battleships, I'm pretty sure that, alongside the Turtle Ship, the Panokseon is of particularly importance of this time, being the main ship fielded and having actual larger numbers than the ultra-specialized and costly Gebukseons, in my list I also had a Kwason as a sort of "War Junk" replacement, but the Kwason seems to be a much more old ship design, compared to the other two.

I found this webpage in particular yo be really useful when examining the period, given that it's painfully difficult to find good sources of Korean Military during the Joseon Period in english... or anything Korea in that period really, I guess that's why they called it the "Hermit Kingdom" Smile

It gives a good view at the wide variety of weapons used during the war. I also recall having read somewhere that the Koreans had the advantage mainly while fighting at range, easily breaking ranks when the time came to breaking into melee, but I guess you can enlighten us more on the subject. In either case, I'd certainly give a focus on cannons and archers over heavy infantry in this hypothetical civilization.

While I'm going through this stream of consciousness (did the research some years ago, so memory is fuzzy) I recall having read the Koreans had better tech to do Cannons than actual handguns, as they had the casts to easily build cannons, but that didn't quite translate well to the building of the more delicate arquebuses that the Japanese fielded en masse, leading to the use of larger "Hand Cannon" sort of weapons. According to Wikipedia these were called Victory Guns, though it didn't elaborate more on the subject, I'd have to do some research again to fetch that information back.

While I'm here, does the "War Wagon" from Age of Empires II have any basis on reality?
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GoTDTruth
Prussian Landwehr
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Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:14 am    Post subject:

Quote:
I recall having read there were Warrior Monks during the Imjin war, I presume something could be worked off that?


Quote:
Anyways, back to the Imjin Wars, can you by chance find any information on "Dharma Master Hyujong"? I found a webpage that postulates him as the leader of the Monk Warrior resistance against the Japanese invasion, but given that the webpage is from the USA military, I have some hesitations regarding how accurate it may be.


At various time in Korean history militia armies grew to defend the country. these are known as righteous armies, and they usually were led by "warrior" Buddhist Monks and is what I'm basing the Joseon explorer on. Also, I proposed a tech/HC card that grant additional monks and gives them an attack bonus aura for nearby units.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_Army

Quote:
Anyways, back to the Imjin Wars, can you by chance find any information on "Dharma Master Hyujong"?

I think this is what you were looking for? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyujeong

Quote:
I found this webpage in particular yo be really useful when examining the period, given that it's painfully difficult to find good sources of Korean Military during the Joseon Period in english... or anything Korea in that period really, I guess that's why they called it the "Hermit Kingdom" Smile


that is actually an interesting page and those crossbows/"catapults" are really interesting. You should take a look at the link below, it features the chongtong, Hwacha firing Singijeon, and Gakgung firing Pyeonjeon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJELZ0vYvV8

Quote:
While I'm here, does the "War Wagon" from Age of Empires II have any basis on reality?


tbh, I was curious about that myself
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:45 pm    Post subject:

Here are is list of HC cards that could be borrowed directly from Japanese and make complete sense from a historical perspective.

    Stream of Enlightenment - Monks get an Aura that reduces enemy Attack

    Zen Diet - Villagers cost 60 Wood (instead of 100 Food)
    Improved Buildings - Buildings get +40% Hit Points
    Extensive Fortifications - Castles gets +4 Build Limit, +25% Hit Points

    Land Reforms - Villagers and Rickshaws build buildings 50% faster, Build XP is doubled
    Fish Market - Fishing Boats gather from Fish and Whales 25% faster
    Peacetime Fishing - Warships gather from Fish and Whales 125% faster
    Armed Fishermen - Fishing Boats get +10% Hit Points, +33% LOS, and a ranged attack
    Whale Oil - Fishing Boats gather from whales 35% faster
    Sawmills - Villagers gather wood 15% faster
    Exotic Hardwoods - Villagers gather wood 20% faster
    Royal Mint HC - +25% coin production
    Silversmith - Villagers gather coin from mines 20% faster
    Sustainable Agriculture - Villagers gather food from Farms, Mills, and Rice Paddies 15% faster
    Reclaimed Land - ships 1 Rice Paddy Rickshaw, Villagers gather food and coin from Rice Paddies 5% faster
    Flooded Parcel - ships 1 Rice Paddy Rickshaw, Villagers gather food and coin from Rice Paddies 8% faster
    Terraced Hillsides - ships 1 Rice Paddy Rickshaw, Villagers gather food and coin from Rice Paddies 10% faster
    Sumptuary Laws - Gives +0.30 Food, Wood and Coin Trickle, +0.15 Experience and Export Trickle

    Admiralty - Increases Build Limit for all warships
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:12 pm    Post subject:

Firestorm wrote:
Please don't kill me Tilanus Mr. Green

Okay, maybe not. Mr. Green

Quote:
Since NE main focus are large scale conflicts like the seven years war and Napoleonic wars which mainly were European wars, that's why I wrote it. While these wars affected other continents as well, Britain and France rivalry affected the Americas and India, on the other hand Russia's expansion on Central Asia and Siberia created them new conflicts with large Asian empires like China and Persia. Napoleon's continental system against Britain triggered a war between Americans and British in 1812. Finally, Napoleon's invasion of the Iberian peninsula triggered the revolutions in Latin America. All of this is or is going to be covered in different ways by this mod. But nothing of that affected the Far East. European and American presence on East Asia would increase after NE timeline(1815/1825). With closing an eye regarding China, Japan and Korea I meant allowing some consulate options that did happen a bit later like Russians for Korea (on the condition that they don't introduce communism and split Korea into two states Mr. Green ) and Americans for Japan (but no MacArthur and atomic bombs here Mr. Green )

I won't bend the timeline just for the sake of Asian consulates, because it's exactly the limitation to 1815~1825 that forces extra creativity and thorough research in order to make still both, interesting gameplays and portrayals of the Asian civilizations. If you have to bend a timeline so much to make things interesting then one's crucial problem-solving skills as a designer need some improvements. I know it's tempting to do that, because technology after the NE timeline were quite revolutionary (all over the world) and it makes things very easy and that is also the reason why you see always the same things in games. With NE I want to avoid becoming a part of these endless repititions of always the same stereotypes and assets. AoE3 already is such a game.

Not having these fancy technologies and options available is exactly makes it very interesting from a design perspective, because it's a real challenge and not just a mere checklist of fanciness. So, Asian civilizations don't need to be "honored" through the presence of Europeans or Americans in order to be "complete" or interesting. Let's take the best use of the possibilities that appear within the NE timeline and when a consulate with European civilizations doesn't work well, then don't try to force it, but craft a different feature that is both interesting and closer to the historical reality. And if you don't find any, let it be. AoE3 civs are complex enough already.

GoTDTruth wrote:
I would actually suggest using models from other civs and just change the name. The shrine is a great example, You could just use the Japanese shrine model (maybe minor changes) and call it a Hyanggyo. Take that model stretch it out a little and call it a Seowon. Take the Chinese war junk and rename it Bigeodo (again, maybe minor changes. Like 2 sails instead of 3). Could use the dojo model for the dojang and just change the name. (although, I’m doubting the dojang’s importance because of how little info I can find on Joseon training facilities. But I also can’t find much on Japanese dojos prior to late 19th century. May want to scrap the dojang concept)EDIT: if I misunderstood and you were asking why not just use the War Junk... I guess that would be fine, the only reason I suggest the name change to Bigeodo is because I am pretty sure that is what a ship of that size/character would have been called in the Korean Navy.

Same functions get the same names. If you notably modify an object, then we can consider another name. It's not that I couldn't change the name technically, but a game needs a consistent logic when it comes to visual changes of any kind. If the Bigeodo is more or less like the Chinese War Junk, then let's use this. In a matter of doubt, the capabilities of a civ are more important than providing the most precise translations of unit names. In Portuguese Musketeers are called Mosqueteiros, in Spanish Mosqueteros, in German Musketiere, yet they are all called Musketeer, because they are functionally equal and because a further variation was neither desired nor necessary for each of these the civilizations. And that is also how I look at Dojo and Dojang. As a game designer you have to be able to translate any matter - from linguistic differences to historical wordings - into the design language of the game in order to utilize it correctly. A thing doesn't become truly unique by exchanging its label if in the essence it remains the same.

Quote:
Hmm, I understand what you mean. But I would avoid calling Seon Buddhism and Zen Buddhism the same thing. It’s kind of like saying that Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy is the same thing XD sorta, but not really. Culturally they are different, and I’m sure that someone practicing one or the other would be offended by the assumption that they are the same.

Okay, but the importance of that difference is also linked to how much and often we will de facto deal with the civ's religion. If no real features emerge from it, it's better to stay with Zen Buddhism. The game simply isn't and also can not be everywhere as detailed to the same extent.

Quote:
From what I’ve watched/read about the Imjin War, Admiral Yi’s turtle ships were capable of firing upon Japanese ships from long range. Enough that the Japanese cannon couldn’t retaliate. Personally, I would suggest the turtle ship would have short range broadside attacks combine with a weak, long range front monitor shot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTan6eDphCk

Hm, I see. Well, maybe. I just thought that because the Panokseon has an open deck it actually allows the installation of a mortar as opposed to the closed deck of the Turtle Ship.

Quote:
I think you may be oversimplifying the gwageo. It’s true that it was extremely important for the upper “yangban” class to maintain status and obtain highest positions in government. It is also true that process of taking this exam would become corrupt and designed to favor the yangban entirely (specifically the higher literary portion which was critical for higher government office positions). However, the gwageo’s importance is much broader, it was required for ANY position of status. The military portions of the gwageo were require for all? military rank (maybe unless in time of conflict). Both upper and middle class individuals (male and female) practiced gungdo both as a kind of national pastime and because it was an important part of the gwageo. Also, although most of the exam focused on confusion text, it also promoted things such as the study of medicine, astronomy, and horsemanship.
Gwageo was an important part of Korea’s culture for over 1000 years and the importance of this kind of exam based education can still be seen in Korea’s culture today. For example, the Sungkyunkwan (national university) is not only an important part of the culture because it is one of the oldest universities in the world, but also because it played an important part in the country’s history. Many kings and those of the highest class attended and it was an important location various political factionalism. In multiple cases, students from entire political factions were “purged” from the university. Educational institutions were just as much an important part of the political factionalism and bureaucracy that Joseon was known for as it was an education and career system.

Thanks for clarification! Smile

Quote:
Quote:
While I'm here, does the "War Wagon" from Age of Empires II have any basis on reality?


tbh, I was curious about that myself

The unit's background description in the Conquerors manual mentioned the Kingdom of Koryo. Here's the text:
The Conquerors Manual wrote:
We have hints from scant records that the Koryo were innovative warriors, perhaps being the first to use rockets in combat and carriages of some type. Trains of these wagons could be arranged into temporary fortifications in open areas, providing a mobile, yet substantial, defensive position against mounted enemies. So became the war wagon, a classic chariot with scythed blades and mobile forts from which archers could fire with some protection.


I actually think the Hwacha served as source of inspiration. The actual design looks very fictive to me. But speaking of the AoE2 Koreans: What's with the other boni? They were pretty good with towers (free tower upgrades, additional range, reduced building time). Their villagers had larger LOS and worked 20% faster on stone ("gold"). Do you see how these boni might base on?



Thanks for the list of HC cards, I have included them in my internal civ outline. Smile
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