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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:28 pm    Post subject: Russians

Here a complete extract of the debate about Russians from the HRE topic:

Yurashic wrote:
Yeah it is indeed really hard to find the best leader of such a big time period and make units that suits all ages.

Let's take Russia for example.

Strelets and musketeers could not exist at the same time, because strelets were basically archaic musketeers. After the big strelet uprising in the end of the 17th century some were executed, some sent to Siberia, and the rest were reformed into musketeers. Strelets never existed from that point anymore. They should normally be only upgradable to veteran and musketeers should be available in age 3.

Oprichniks only existed in the second half of the 16th century during the reign of Ivan IV the Terrible. In his later years, in 1572, oprichniks were dismissed. They should normally be only upgradable to veteran.

Poleaxemen can be upgraded to imperial? Are you serious? There were no people with axes on battlefields in the 19th century, poleaxemen are medieval units who should only be upgradable to veteran as well...

Since strelets are archaic, Russia needs skirmishers.

I do not say that these changes should be in the game but at the very least this is how it looks from the historical point of view. Smile


Firestorm wrote:
Hey Yurashic!
I agree that currently Russia's military roster is quite archaic. But this is more the fault of ES than NE. I agree that they need to be re-worked and will be Wink That's why I would like to change their AI personality to Peter the Great or Catherine the Great in order to highlight Russian modernization. As far as I know on NE 2.2, Russia will loose the trait of quantity over quality. The Polaxeman is Russian counterpart of European Pikeman. But they don't need guard and imperial upgrades. I think NE has to keep the Strelet but give it a Royal Upgrade that transform it into a more modern skirmisher. So by default he will be 10% stronger, without mentioning the possible re-worked stats. Can you find a unit for Strelet RG? Or the Russian word for skirmisher? Actually it would be nice to have a source of the Russian army during Tsar Alexander I. Also we are considering replacing the Oprichnik with a modern heavy cavalry. We are open for suggestions Smile


Yurashic wrote:
Firestorm wrote:
Hey Yurashic!
I agree that currently Russia's military roster is quite archaic. But this is more the fault of ES than NE. I agree that they need to be re-worked and will be Wink That's why I would like to change their AI personality to Peter the Great or Catherine the Great in order to highlight Russian modernization. As far as I know on NE 2.2, Russia will loose the trait of quantity over quality. The Polaxeman is Russian counterpart of European Pikeman. But they don't need guard and imperial upgrades. I think NE has to keep the Strelet but give it a Royal Upgrade that transform it into a more modern skirmisher. So by default he will be 10% stronger, without mentioning the possible re-worked stats. Can you find a unit for Strelet RG? Or the Russian word for skirmisher? Actually it would be nice to have a source of the Russian army during Tsar Alexander I. Also we are considering replacing the Oprichnik with a modern heavy cavalry. We are open for suggestions Smile


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Army_order_of_battle_(1812)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Russian_Army
http://marksrussianmilitaryhistory.info/1812CARD.html

Russian army during the reign of Alexander the I was similar to most European armies during the Napoleonic wars - musketeers, riflemen, artillery, dragoons, hussars, uhlans, cuirassiers.

I can't think of any special royal guard name really. The Russian word for skirmisher is "zastrelshik" (застрельщик) . Literally - one that shoots people dead.

I don't know what new type of cavalry can be. Kalmicks and Bashkirs are already in the game as church units, cossacks are regular units - everything else was similar to European.

Lol, I opened the message editor and was searching for stuff before posting while Tilanus wrote that we should not post there...

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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:41 pm    Post subject:

I think in some older Modding Report I gave some samples for how I will rework the Russian civilization. As Firestorm did point out, the Russians will lose the HP+DMG malus.

I intend to turn the current Strelet into a Strelez, a unique elite arquebusier with no Guard+Imperial upgrade. It'll get a good range for an arquebusier and good siege and melee base dmg. A HC card or tech can turn them into Musketeers.

Russian Musketeers and Dragoons will be available each one age later. Cavalry Archers could, however, be available an age earlier. They'll also get Pikemen or a Pikeman-like unit. The Poleaxeman will most likely get sacrificed in that context. Oprichniki are about to be kicked as well, even though I know it's a popular unit. Maybe it can stay as a pure HC unit available early on.
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Ande59
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:17 pm    Post subject:

Ooh! A thread regarding the Russian civ? Yay.

I'm curious regarding a few things:

The Strellet: I think they're really nice, both in uniqueness and in game play. Game-play wise (in supremacy), usually they aren't trained mid-late game unless a Russian player is low on resources, only costing 37.5 Food and 10 Wood cost per Strellet, allowing the player to boom nicely. My question is: Are they losing their wood cost? and are they going to get a buff? (damage increase?)

Cavalry: Are they keeping their Cavalry Archers? If so, are they keeping their RG upgrade?
With the new Heavy Cavalry they're receiving, what are they going to be like? Considering the Cossack unit fufill the role of a slightly cheaper (and hence weaker) Hussar. Are they going to be something similar to the French Heavy Cavalry? or Lancers?

Are we also going to see the "Group-unit training" on the Cavalry units?

Grenadiers: Considering they're also infantry... would we see the "Group-unit Training" on the Grenadiers?
Are the Grenadiers going to keep their RG upgrade? Or will we see the second RG of Russia being moved to another unit? (such as Strellets, cossacks, musketeers)

Edit: Answers to some of my Strellet questions were above; I was writing this whilst you posted :S
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GoTDTruth
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:06 pm    Post subject:

I always felt the Russian civ was too archaic. I understand that they wanted to emphasize that Russia was mostly the underdeveloped backwoods of Europe. But that is somewhat misleading.

A lot of this thinking comes from the Russian economy which was very slow to develop. Russia had basically no industrial growth (mostly because its attachment to serfdom) and much of its resources and and even governance was disjointed until the construction of railroad. (even with the assistance of railroads Russia exported much of its resources, because it lacked the industrial capacity to process it into manufacturing goods) Prior to Peter the great, the government was an autocratic absolute monarchy where almost nothing was accomplished without the czars intervention, OR boyars were nearly completely independent due to distances or negligence (similar to later cossack communities form which issues would arise).

However, after Peter the great the country pushed towards modernization and enlightenment thinking. Peter completely overhauled the Russian Navy and army. contrary to the idea that Russia didn't industrialize, which is mostly true, the government did make investment in industry. Peter built the Tula Arsenal (Tula Arms Plant) on near an iron mine in 1712 to assist with the modernization of the army. he also worked to modernize his ships and construct navy bases. Russia has always had an issue arming its large population in times of war (only relatively small compared to land area XD ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Suvorov
^important military leader between Peter I and Catherine II.

edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tula_Arms_Plant#History_of_the_plant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Route
^because its interesting Razz
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meta_knight25
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:16 pm    Post subject:

if you delete opprichnik improve siege attack of cossacks like 60-80% of oppri attack
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Ande59
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:01 am    Post subject:

I don't think Cossacks need to have an improved siege stats, considering Russians already have a card that improve the infantry siege attack by 30-40% (forgot which number). Besides, the Cossacks siege attack is actually quite good for their price (and considering they're a 1-pop unit cavalry).

I also think the NE team have something in mind with the new Heavy Cavalry that compensates for the removal of Opris being removed, considering as Tilanus mentioned earlier:

Quote:
Oprichniki are about to be kicked as well, even though I know it's a popular unit.

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meta_knight25
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:49 am    Post subject:

oppri=best russian unit (russia with no oppri isn't russia and this change a lot the game play)
the remplacing unit had to be really op and have hight attack vs building (to balance)
for inf its 50% siege attack but inf of russian are weaks =a little better attack vs building than normal
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Yurashic
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:09 pm    Post subject:

Oprichnik removal is fine really, you have unicorn mortars to kill buildings!
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Ande59
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:43 am    Post subject:

meta_knight25 wrote:
oppri=best russian unit (russia with no oppri isn't russia and this change a lot the game play)


I'd have to disagree. The Russian civ isn't defined by one unit.
Their unique "bonus" (Settlers and infantry train in batches of 3, and infantry are cheaper but slightly weaker [except grenadiers])... as well as their strengths and weaknesses, all contribute in defining the Russian Civ... not just Oprichnik alone.

Gameplay doesn't change as much (if at all). Not all Russian players mass Opris and use the box formation anyway. That strategy is being used less and less (There are actually a lot more russian players who don't even touch the Stables, and I'm talking Rank 2nd Lieutenant and above, in TAD). Besides, Opris are only useful against buildings and Artillery, and I rarely see people actually using Opris to destroy artillery.

Back on topic...
I always found the Russian cavalry force not as strong as the other civs, especially the new NE civs, so it's nice to hear that there are plans for another Heavy Cavalry unit to be added.
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meta_knight25
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:15 pm    Post subject:

"Oprichnik removal is fine really, you have unicorn mortars to kill buildings!" ROFL
time to train a mortar vs time to train a oppri?
speed of a mortar?
hp of a mortar?
recharge time?
"Not all Russian players mass Opris and use the box formation anyway."
60 % in sup use oppri
100%use oppri in nr and 70%use box
"so it's nice to hear that there are plans for another Heavy Cavalry unit to be added."
yeah but this standardise russian with other civ
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:34 pm    Post subject:

@Ande59

As I said, Strelets are going to be reworked completely. Better prepare for a new unit instead of a simple stat mod of the current Strelet, it is nowhere as close. Imagine a elite Hand Cannoneer/Skirmisher hybrid. It'll be a high class unit as it's been in history and not like ES portrayed them as massable cannon fooder. I'll shift that mass infantry and group training thing to the US to whose history these features fit a lot better.

Russians will keep Cavalry Archers and their Grenadier RG. As for new heavy cavalry, this question is not entirely answered yet. Fact is, Russian cavalry has mostly been light. Only rich nobles carried heavier armor and lances and fought in individual fashion. The landed gentry served as cavalry archers armed with a 'sovna' called polearm. Only with Pjotr I. cuirassiers and certain guard regiments were introduced. I'm currently not planning with a new unique unit, but rather a royal guard upgrade of some kind, a Church tech unit feature or a special alteration of an elite unit such as the Garde du Corps.

@GoTDTruth

Exactly, the Russian civ was stereotypically portrayed as an archaic barbarian horde. But well, the game is made by Americans, so that's not a surprise. We plan to introduce Pjotr I. as a new AI personality and also update the Russian flag. Thanks for the links, I'll have a look! Smile

@meta_knight25

Ande59 is right about Cossacks having fairly good siege stats already for their costs. Also, the new Strelez unit and the Pikemen I consider to add will come with good siege stats too. So there really is no loss in early Russian siege capabilities. Plus, if some Oprichniki stay available as early HC only units, you can still use them.

meta_knight25 wrote:
oppri=best russian unit (russia with no oppri isn't russia and this change a lot the game play)
the remplacing unit had to be really op and have hight attack vs building (to balance)
for inf its 50% siege attack but inf of russian are weaks =a little better attack vs building than normal

This is a fairly conservative perspective that you have on the game. For you the Russian civ isn't about historical Russia actually, but a mere set of features that you don't want to be changed. Russia is going to lose a lot of its old weaknesses and gains new strengths in return. We are fully aware of changing the Russian gameplay, because that's exactly our intention.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:23 pm    Post subject:

I give you full support regarding the changes of the Russian civilization for NE 2.2, Tilanus. By the way, will Russia keep its unique university tech "Siberian expansion" which adds 20 population to the maximum population limit?
Also I don't see a good reason to give the training block to the US. Is this a payback for ES? I do understand that technically the US army is crap and training blocks could be a good bonus for them, especially considering their good economy. But on historical basis, this bonus could feat better the Ottomans and Indians who usually gathered large armies and used plenty irregular soldiers. Just an idea Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:41 pm    Post subject:

Firestorm wrote:
I give you full support regarding the changes of the Russian civilization for NE 2.2, Tilanus. By the way, will Russia keep its unique university tech "Siberian expansion" which adds 20 population to the maximum population limit?

Phew, the historical Siberian expansion is a delicate topic. I'd say yes, but only when it comes with a notable, added malus, such as hitpoints decrease of all settlers(+natives).

Quote:
Also I don't see a good reason to give the training block to the US. Is this a payback for ES? I do understand that technically the US army is crap and training blocks could be a good bonus for them, especially considering their good economy. But on historical basis, this bonus could feat better the Ottomans and Indians who usually gathered large armies and used plenty irregular soldiers. Just an idea Smile

Group training is not a penalty. The American State Militias (the new 'Marines') are very very cheap, so they're perfect for batch training. That way you can not spam them non-stop.

There are many good reasons to make the US play more challenging. Also, I didn't say how large the batches would be. Strelets were trained in groups of 10 and their base costs were super cheap with only around ~37f 10w per unit. This simply doesn't make any sense for Russians anymore, if a) the hitpoint malus is removed and b) the new Strelez is going to be a proper unit that comes with higher and different increased costs.
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meta_knight25
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:29 pm    Post subject:

ok but if the oppri is on hc he will have upgrade at each age? like spahi, dog soldier,skull knight or urimi
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Yurashic
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:48 pm    Post subject:

Very good ideas there by Tilanus.

Block training should indeed be removed. "Quantity over quality" became a thing only in WW1 and WW2 when there were problems with arming and training soldiers properly because of massive increases in population. If you look at the numbers, in most wars the kill/loss ratio was even or in favour of Russia.

No civilization should have block training really, it makes a civilization somewhat weak because you need a lot of res to queue a batch. China is fine with banner armies because their units are so cost efficient that if they could make units separately they would have been the best sup civ...

I honestly can't think of any unique heavy cavalry unit except for Bashkirs and Kalmyks, but they are both already church units. Probably you could just leave 2 units at the stable.

If you are going to redesign strelets, the card "Suvorov reforms" should be changed. I think 15% musketeer boost is a good new card bonus.
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meta_knight25
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:43 am    Post subject:

block training is bad when u have max pop u can't begin the training with one unit and put 5 unit when u have pop space=more time to train
good idéa for surovov reform
why not 2 type of cossacks?like cossacks ew
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