Modding Report #26 - End of the year 2015
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
   Forum Index -> News
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tilanus Commodor
NE Commander
NE Commander


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 5080
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:18 pm    Post subject:

Grand Duchy of Tuscany? I excluded them from further coverage, because they were a puppet of the Habsburgs. Same applies to:

  • Kingdom of Sicily/Naples
  • Duchy of Milan
  • Duchy of Mantua
  • Duchy of Modena and Reggio
  • Duchy of Parma


Also all states associated with the HRE (Reichsitalien/Imperial Italy), which are usually insignificant possessions anyway, are not considered as part of the "Italian core".

Permitted Italian assets are from:
  • Republic of Venice
  • Kingdom of Sardinia (Piedmont-Savoy)
  • Papal States
  • Republic of Genoa
  • Corsican Republic
  • Republic of Lucca
  • Republic of San Marino


Regarding the rulers, it's a tricky question. I have favored some Victor Amadeus myself before, but found myself switching between:
  • Victor Amadeus III (longest rule, war against Napoleon, military focus)
  • Victor Amadeus II (architecture, 2 wars, reforms, ...)
  • Victor Emmanuel I (Carabinieri, Navy, Opressor, Jacobite ties, War of the First Coalition)


Have no real favorite...
_________________
Napoleonic Era Project Leader


** Support me to support NE **

Test your Age of Empires knowledge in my
Grand Age of Empires quiz! King Green!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Silmariel
Conquistador
Conquistador


Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Posts: 356
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:42 am    Post subject:

It's exam period, right here in Berlin so of course I've nothing better to do than procrastinating. And while procrastinating I've come up with some ideas:

@Italians/Swiss:
I thought it was planned that Italy did not get ANY royal guard units and relied on hc-shipments and mercenaries instead? Anyway.
In my opinion Italy and Switzerland should be the only civs which have access to crossbowmen beyond veteran status. But instead of using regular upgrades, maybe better use church techs (for example San Marino's Balestrieri(sp?) are quite famous). They could easily replace those Roman Legionaire church tech. And of course Italians still need access to Papal Guards-that's like the most obvious choice for a church tech.

It's somewhat different for Switzerland where the crossbow is of course the most iconic weapon. And they already have a church/tent-tech. But instead of being able to research it only once it could be interesting to be like an infinite shipment or an iterative one (similar to current Prussian Freikorps). But no regular upgrade. Better to use Swiss guard for that.

@Austria
Ironically it's the only civ missing in your list of planned changes but I know we already talked about it a bit (mainly Grenzer techs and wood-bonus). But now comes a quite unexpected suggestion i guess-it's about the Austrian navy. While Austria(-Hungary) grew to have the 6th biggest fleet in the world before WWI it was only a very minor naval power by the early stages of NE's timeframe. But what they did have was the Donauflottille (Danube fleet) consisting of quite a few smaller ships (up to 148) and a few oversized ones which eventually beached on the banks of the river (genious engineering there). Donauflottille was mainly used to counter Ottoman naval attacks (on danube river), raiding their supply lines and supporting land forces. Main boat type there was the Tschaike. Here's a picture.
I think it could make a good unique navy unit, replacing BOTH, caravel and galleon.
Possible Characteristics:
cheap, small, fast, good for transporting troops (maybe with a hc-drop-off-point?), buildable in bigger numbers, no broadside. Bonus vs buildings and land troops. Increased attack if transporting troops.

@Navy
I know, navy has not a high priority. But what about ships costing population instead of a buildlimit?

@Mercenaries
With age-dependant mercenaries approaching I'm wondering-will there still be a difference between bandit units and mercenaries? Imo there should be none and mercenaries should have high pop-cost instead of a buildlimit (while mercenary-shipments decrease their pop-cost for the mercenary unit shipped)).

@HRE
Very minor issue here again. But the flag is not fully accurate, right? Claws and beak should be red, shouldn't they? Also the yellow is a bit to glaring in my opinion right now. Of course there is the issue with confusing flags with Austria but that should be somehow doable?

Edit:
@Danes/Ridders/cavalry unit rule
While I was quite excited about the unique mounted healer Denmark should get, I'm a bit disappointed now. The ridder is simply a heavy cavalry unit with a very generic name. Increasing dragoon's health/armor and giving them a healing ability would have yielded the same benefits. I could imagine they would work as a hc-shipped elite unit like the spahi but shoud that not be reserved for the Danish unique artillery?
Generally I'm much in favor of keeping the 2-cavalry-unit-rule.
What's the 2-cavalry-unit-rule now, you may ask? Well, in AoE III all civs had two standard-cavalry units and only a few civs special purpose cavalry (those are Gendarmes, Spahi, Oprichnik and Lancer). Even with the introduction of many more units and even a lategame cavalry unit (I guess the new one will be the Chasseur ā cheval?) and your idea of including another sort of heavy cavalry unit (ie plans for the cheveauleger) it would be cleaner to stick to the 2 cavalry unit for most civs, especially those which were designed as a more naval focused civ or lack strong cavalry traditions. Everything else is too crowded in my opinion.
An example I brought up earlier is Sweden now with Hussar and Hakapelit/Drabant. Wouldn't a Hakapelit unit suffice? RG: Drabant, HP as hussar but higher attack, cost as cheveauleger. That keeps the current spirit of the Hakapelit, as well as giving Sweden a decent cavalry unit with the higher melee damage Swedish units benefit from as you said and not wasting any designs.
Even Russia could be reduced to two cavalry units: cossack as a cheap hussar-replacement with an additional edge as raiding cavalry and cavalry archers as anti-cavalry. Eventually they would get a third cavalry unit if sending a shipment that allows dragoons in the stable. Very few civs should have access to a 3-unit-stable.
Imo those should be:
(Austria)
France
(HRE)
Poland
Ottomans
(Russia)
Spain

Now you might say thise is boring but you can still get various cavalry units such as mercenaries, church tech units(Mörner's Hussars for Sweden for example) and natives(such as Wallachian boyars as a non-op-oprichnik replacement). You don't need much more than one heavy cavalry unit and one anti-cavalry cavalry unit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pawelec_POLAND
Continental Marine
Continental Marine


Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 156
Location: Poland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:59 pm    Post subject:

Tilanus Commodor wrote:
Grand Duchy of Tuscany? I excluded them from further coverage, because they were a puppet of the Habsburgs. Same applies to:

  • Kingdom of Sicily/Naples
  • Duchy of Milan
  • Duchy of Mantua
  • Duchy of Modena and Reggio
  • Duchy of Parma


Also all states associated with the HRE (Reichsitalien/Imperial Italy), which are usually insignificant possessions anyway, are not considered as part of the "Italian core".

Permitted Italian assets are from:
  • Republic of Venice
  • Kingdom of Sardinia (Piedmont-Savoy)
  • Papal States
  • Republic of Genoa
  • Corsican Republic
  • Republic of Lucca
  • Republic of San Marino


Regarding the rulers, it's a tricky question. I have favored some Victor Amadeus myself before, but found myself switching between:
  • Victor Amadeus III (longest rule, war against Napoleon, military focus)
  • Victor Amadeus II (architecture, 2 wars, reforms, ...)
  • Victor Emmanuel I (Carabinieri, Navy, Opressor, Jacobite ties, War of the First Coalition)


Have no real favorite...
As a southern Europe's history geek I can tell that making any clear divisions in Italian history is at least very difficult, nothing was ever clear there. Tuscany is a bit problematic, as some say the Medici were installed as dukes by the Habsburgs, but in fact they were in charge of the city prior to switching from republic to duchy. Tuscany maintained hugely independent position compared with other states of HRE, mostly because of its location at its very border.

As for the leader: if you really have no favourite Tilanus, count my vote for Victor Amadeus II. He was much more active politician than Victor Amadeus III and Victor Emmanuel I IMHO is a bit out of the NE timeline.
_________________
"Let us return to the past; it will be progress."
by Giuseppe Verdi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tilanus Commodor
NE Commander
NE Commander


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 5080
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:40 am    Post subject:

@Pawelec: Thanks for the feedback. I'll not dig that deep just to find out whether the Grand Duchy of Tuscany was a mini, semi, pseudo, fully independent Italian state. If someone makes a very good point why they should be covered, I'll be up to change my mind. So far I see no reason for that though. ^^

Silmariel wrote:
@Italians/Swiss:
I thought it was planned that Italy did not get ANY royal guard units and relied on hc-shipments and mercenaries instead? Anyway.

Not that I would remember. "Italy's" mercenary phase was in the late medieval times. During the NE timeline the Italian states focused on maintaining massive militia armies, small professional regiments and integrating foreigners permanently both into military service and society. So, Italians will get access to much better units, but that doesn't mean it'll be as easy to afford as it used to be with that insane eco power.. Wink

Quote:
In my opinion Italy and Switzerland should be the only civs which have access to crossbowmen beyond veteran status. But instead of using regular upgrades, maybe better use church techs (for example San Marino's Balestrieri(sp?) are quite famous). They could easily replace those Roman Legionaire church tech. And of course Italians still need access to Papal Guards-that's like the most obvious choice for a church tech.

I agree on RG xbows only for Italians and Swiss and I'd even say these should - possibly with Spain - be the only civs to have access to xbows in general. Italian Papal Guards are already on the way. Having xbows both as RGs and Church units makes no sense as Church techs usually ship the types of units a civ lacks. With the Genoese xbows there already is an Italian xbow RG. I've noted down the San-Marinese Crossbowmen before, but have had no specific ideas for them yet. I do though for the Guardia Nobile.

Quote:
It's somewhat different for Switzerland where the crossbow is of course the most iconic weapon. And they already have a church/tent-tech. But instead of being able to research it only once it could be interesting to be like an infinite shipment or an iterative one (similar to current Prussian Freikorps). But no regular upgrade. Better to use Swiss guard for that.

To accomplish what? Insane stats? Mr. Green I kinda prefer using a Church tech for granting a RG upgrade to the Swiss xbows. It doesn't force the Swiss to rely on them and after all I want to reduce archaisms. So keeping them separate is what I like.

Quote:
@Austria
Ironically it's the only civ missing in your list of planned changes but I know we already talked about it a bit (mainly Grenzer techs and wood-bonus). But now comes a quite unexpected suggestion i guess-it's about the Austrian navy. While Austria(-Hungary) grew to have the 6th biggest fleet in the world before WWI it was only a very minor naval power by the early stages of NE's timeframe. But what they did have was the Donauflottille (Danube fleet) consisting of quite a few smaller ships (up to 148) and a few oversized ones which eventually beached on the banks of the river (genious engineering there). Donauflottille was mainly used to counter Ottoman naval attacks (on danube river), raiding their supply lines and supporting land forces. Main boat type there was the Tschaike. Here's a picture.
I think it could make a good unique navy unit, replacing BOTH, caravel and galleon.
Possible Characteristics:
cheap, small, fast, good for transporting troops (maybe with a hc-drop-off-point?), buildable in bigger numbers, no broadside. Bonus vs buildings and land troops. Increased attack if transporting troops.

@Navy
I know, navy has not a high priority. But what about ships costing population instead of a buildlimit?

I'm sorry to tell that Austria does currently not rank high in my to-do list as there are bigger construction sites with the Swiss, Swedish and Americans. Razz The Austrian imbalances can be fixed comparably easy as it mainly boils down to number tweaking.

As for the navy, it's kinda fun. I looked up my internal docs for a note about it and found 'See if Austrian Navy is adequately represented' lol I was aware of the existing Austrian fleet, so I'm glad you're bringing that up. Smile The concept reminds me a bit on the Swiss Smuggler ship. I can not think of anything special right now, but I have copied your text to my notes. Wink

Knowing the smarties in the multiplayer scene I'm afraid that pop costs for ships in exchange for no build limits would encourage people to play Austrians on water maps on purpose, because they would be able to spam the shit ouf all their docks.

Quote:
@Mercenaries
With age-dependant mercenaries approaching I'm wondering-will there still be a difference between bandit units and mercenaries? Imo there should be none and mercenaries should have high pop-cost instead of a buildlimit (while mercenary-shipments decrease their pop-cost for the mercenary unit shipped)).

I support the opposite. High pop-costs only make units look ridiculous (6 pop for some redneck rifleman, say whaaat). I'm not a big fan of BLs either, but considering that the supply of regionally available mercs was not infinite either makes it the more credible option for me. As for the difference between outlaws and mercs, I don't see why there should be a technical one. I actually would like to see outlaws as low-budget mercs who cover larger regions and can be found in larger quantities.

Quote:
@HRE
Very minor issue here again. But the flag is not fully accurate, right? Claws and beak should be red, shouldn't they? Also the yellow is a bit to glaring in my opinion right now. Of course there is the issue with confusing flags with Austria but that should be somehow doable?

Jaja, don't worry. Razz There'll be the right time for that.

Quote:
@Danes/Ridders/cavalry unit rule
While I was quite excited about the unique mounted healer Denmark should get, I'm a bit disappointed now. The ridder is simply a heavy cavalry unit with a very generic name. Increasing dragoon's health/armor and giving them a healing ability would have yielded the same benefits. I could imagine they would work as a hc-shipped elite unit like the spahi but shoud that not be reserved for the Danish unique artillery?

Uh? I can't follow. The Danes aren't even ... out yet? ^^ While the ridder does have a generic name, it doesn't mean the unit has no depth in neither play nor historical background. I can assure that under theocratic absolutist rule you really don't wanna mess with the Danish-Norwegian noble clergy! Razz The Ridders can be trained in the unique, multiple times buildable Danish Round church. It's not a HC unit and it also doesn't train in the Stable. I also fail to see how a pimped dragoon would have any similarity to a healing meat shield. It's a bit like saying Dragoons would just be Musketeer put on a horse with inverse armor type and their boni also applying for ranged attack (what a damn boring, lame unit that is). Razz

Quote:
Generally I'm much in favor of keeping the 2-cavalry-unit-rule.

What a damn boring rule that is Razz

Quote:
An example I brought up earlier is Sweden now with Hussar and Hakapelit/Drabant. Wouldn't a Hakapelit unit suffice? RG: Drabant, HP as hussar but higher attack, cost as cheveauleger. That keeps the current spirit of the Hakapelit, as well as giving Sweden a decent cavalry unit with the higher melee damage Swedish units benefit from as you said and not wasting any designs.

The old Drabant stats were ahistorical crap, just forget them (they won't come back). Drabants will be heavier and Hussars lighter than they used to be. Your pop space, res and situation will decide which one you'll want to build. French also have Hussars next to Cuirs and that has always been alright, because there's nothing wrong with some stat scaling.

Quote:
Even Russia could be reduced to two cavalry units: cossack as a cheap hussar-replacement with an additional edge as raiding cavalry and cavalry archers as anti-cavalry. Eventually they would get a third cavalry unit if sending a shipment that allows dragoons in the stable. Very few civs should have access to a 3-unit-stable.

You could also play the game with only one cavalry unit, but that would be a damn bo.. Razz I've always complained about people forcing too many unique units when it's not necessary, but that doesn't mean I would want to downgrade the capabilities of a civ, turning them into toothless tigers by taking away from them what's not posing any serious threat to balance. Seems you're a more hardcore standardizer than me.. ^^

Quote:
Now you might say thise is boring but you can still get various cavalry units such as mercenaries, church tech units(Mörner's Hussars for Sweden for example) and natives(such as Wallachian boyars as a non-op-oprichnik replacement). You don't need much more than one heavy cavalry unit and one anti-cavalry cavalry unit.

Different people, different habits. I personally like to mix, but I know others don't and that's fine as well. Just don't train a unit if you don't feel you need it. On a second note, you must be well aware of the fact that a regular/unique unit is just not the same as a church tech unit, native or merc in terms of availability, absolute as well as relative costs. They are also meant to serve differen't purposes, which is why they got notably different stats in first place, right?
Devil
_________________
Napoleonic Era Project Leader


** Support me to support NE **

Test your Age of Empires knowledge in my
Grand Age of Empires quiz! King Green!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Silmariel
Conquistador
Conquistador


Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Posts: 356
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:45 pm    Post subject:

I was about to restructure the whole thing and cut some things out, which where written in haste and not so well thought but it seems as if you were faster

@crossbowmen
Restricting them to Swiss and Italians only was my basic idea. Didn't make that clear enough I guess. But I don't think that they should develop as a regular unit beyond veteran status. If you give them a RG-upgrade, they will have an Imperial one as long as you don't break with those tradition of upgrades (which I do not suggest, as it might confuse people). While most church techs ship units a civ has no direct access to, it's not fully true. The counter-example is indeed the crossbowmen. Portugal has the crossbowmen available at the barracks but also an insanely expensive church tech that grants you some two dozens of the so called 'Besteiros' (which have a very nice skin, btw which could be used for an Italian upgrade; it somewhat resembles the landsknecht's fancy clothing) which is basically the RG-upgrade for xbowmen.
I'd rather have handcanoneers for the Spanish as arquebusiers where an important part of the Tercio formation.

@Navy
Boats costing pop instead of a buildlimit was not limited to Austrians. All civs' ships should cost population. So you would have to decide wheter you invest heavily into a navy, leaving you with a smaller land force.

About the specific Austrian boat type-I doubt they are very similar to those Swiss nutshells. Those where indeed warships but mainly used to battle fortifications and hindering hostile troops' advancement. They should only be able to beat hostile boats when fighting near your own Austrian fortifications.

Maybe you can be talked into considering another unique naval unit: rocket ships for British (maybe replacing mortarships). This way also the benefits of the current engineering-politician could be packed into a shipment that is beneficial to both, the ship and the artillery piece.

@Cavalry
Something else entirely before I add to the argument: I think it would be good to streamline Asian and European cavalry units a bit. All those cavalry units introduced with TAD have an additional bonus against ranged infantry (such as the Indian Sowar, the Chinese Iron Flail etc.) Currently the NE-introduced demi-lancer technology at the arsenal equips European cavalry units with this benefit.
By restyling the current hussars I'd suggest to add such a bonus directly. They are supposed to counter ranged infantry, so making them a harder counter is certainly a viable way.
Cavalry units with a certain lancer tradition such as uhlans (and maybe cossacks) could have techs or shipments that improve that aspect to make them to some kind of-literally-demi-lancer (up to x2 against all infantry units?).

It's good to have different cavalry for different purposes. And that's why I pointed out the special roles the extra cavalry unit fulfilled for their respective civs. And indeed you picked the worst example. French hussars compared to cuirassiers. Those have about the same role on the battlefield unlike Oprichniks, Lancers and Spahis.
And that's why French players hardly use hussars as soon as cuirassiers become available. Simply because one unit is sooooo much better than the other at nearly any aspect.
Personally I don't believe that a slightly downgraded hussar and a slightly upgraded hussar ('cheveauleger') will work. That's why I suggested a different role for the cheveauleger at an earlier point already. But if you don't mind-would you explain to me the different purposes you imply in your statements? The only role for non-light melee cavalry I can see is basically killing ranged infantry and artillery while not dying hard to other melee cavalry.
And for this role a single cavalry unit could and should suffice. Even more so if it's a unique unit such as the hakapelit which can be shaped accordingly.

Edit: only split I can see is if the hussar is tweaked more towards a raiding cavalry (which certainly suits their historical background with a small bonus against villagers and a higher siege attack). Very similar to the Chinese Steppe Rider. While the cheveauleger is made into the main cavalry unit for fighting. That could work out. But still, all civs without cheveaulegers would lack a decent melee cavalry then, if they dont get a special replacement...

Edit2: As hussars were commonly used as a reconaissance unit-maybe a function similar to AoM's oracle could be implementated? (Maybe only avaible through shipment/tech or for certain civs?) Basically LoS increases if you dont move the oracle around for some time. Is that codeable?

Edit3: Something completly different again: maybe rename the Prussian Uhlan-RG to something more reasonable? Bosniaks or Towarzysz maybe? Czapka really does not fit.


@Danes
Well, I know that they are not out yet. I was only going after what had been told earlier. And that was that priests would be also available for the Danes and might even get another bonus. Which made me imagine them as just another additional cavalry unit with healing ability. WHICH would be very boring.

One (actually two) other thing about Danes: as the US' gatling guns are highly outdated-are the Danes still to get the espingol as a unique artillery unit? They could make good use of the model I guess (or rather the organ gun model?). On the other hand Danes would also make for a suitable candidat for a rocket-artillery-piece. But as they are already unique for to the British I think it would be better to make some 'Schumacher rocket' available as a church tech.
Basically the whole development of the Danish artillery at the time around 1800 seems to center about this very man:
Andreas Schumacher
Espingol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tilanus Commodor
NE Commander
NE Commander


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 5080
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:01 pm    Post subject:

@Silmariel
Crossbowmen & Church tech units
Ugh, Besteiros look like ugly fucks. I never liked them. The new Italian one is just sweet. As for Church tech units, it is true that the original developers were not as consequent as I will be. I'll give Ports Falcs via Church tech instead of xbows and the Black Riders will vanish in favor of Lancers.

Navy
I said your concept reminds me of that of the Swiss smuggler ships, not their stats or visuals. Pop for ships without BLs is a bad idea, because ships are not only driving heavy on perfomance but also way too big for the small AoE3 maps. Also, it puts unnecessary additional barriers in front of a navy-lacking who'd then be even less able to fight the naval supremacy of another player. Rocketships are something we imagined though. Not sure if Brits only though.

Cavalry
It's also good to have cavalry for different situations. Cuirs and Hussars are not exclusive, in fact the low res and pop costs of Hussars are a good complement. Needless to say how crippled France would be without Hussars. You could even have Uhlans and Hussars and still find good use for both. It's not like better hp/atk values beat everything. Everything else I've said already. What you don't seem to understand is that Chevaulegers and Hussars are - by default - not necessarily supposed to be both avl for the same civ. There will be exceptions though, but always with techs, features and cards attached to them that allow different perspectives. And one thing I don't understand about you is why you're so negative about unit options you do not have to use, but others surely will.

The new hussars are faster and have more LOS. So they already are more of a recon and raid unit than before. Additional boni like you suggest would overbenefit them and only result in higher costs, which is cleary the opposite of our intentions. Almost all RGs and Church tech units got new names and designs. Both the Bosniaks and Towarzysz (visually) are covered.

Danes
Well, bad guess then. Maybe you should calm down a bit with the harshness in your criticism. Razz I already planned with both Espingols and Schumacher Rockets long time ago. So thanks for the links, but I already knew them. ^^ Just recently I wondered whether to use the organ or gatling gun model.
_________________
Napoleonic Era Project Leader


** Support me to support NE **

Test your Age of Empires knowledge in my
Grand Age of Empires quiz! King Green!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Zooasaurus
Italian Utili
Italian Utili


Joined: 16 Jan 2016
Posts: 161
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:08 am    Post subject:

Tilanus Commodor wrote:
@Silmariel
Just recently I wondered whether to use the organ or gatling gun model.

Maybe Gatling Gun model With Organ Gun Firing animation/Bullets? Razz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ivenend
Austrian Line Infantry
Austrian Line Infantry


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:55 am    Post subject:

Some referance picture of late 16c Landsknechtwhich are not wearing feather-hats like the early Landsknecht:


http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=17838&d=1459212078

http://i.allday.ru/a9/76/fa/thumbs/1316368104_1562.-charles-ix.-lansquenets.jpg


http://www.vieuxblaye.fr/IMG/jpg/lansquenet_1562.jpg


http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAyNFg3NjQ=/z/9cwAAOxyF0pTjIII/$_57.JPG
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> News All times are GMT
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group | Page design by Tilanus Commodor & michfrm.