NE 3 Units roles?

 
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The last Austriahungarian
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:08 pm    Post subject: NE 3 Units roles?

You anounced 3 types of cav (hussar , cuiraissers and chravesomethibg lol ). I just wanted to know, which will be the diference between them? Which will be their roles snd key elements?
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:50 pm    Post subject:

I'm currently not so sure about cuirassiers for every civ. The NE3 cuirassier would have been similar to the French one. So far it's just an idea, nothing specific.

Hussars and Chevaulegers are both similar to the current Hussars, the major difference being that the new Hussars would be lighter, cheaper and faster while the Chevauleger is the heavier version. Some civs get only Chevs others only Hussars and some both. Through that distribution we can control a lil how aggressive and versatile the role of each civ's melee cavalry can be. It's mainly a cost-efficiency thing and it gives us more possibilities to cover more unique hand cavalrymen of a civ through royal guards.
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The last Austriahungarian
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:57 pm    Post subject:

Tilanus Commodor wrote:
I'm currently not so sure about cuirassiers for every civ. The NE3 cuirassier would have been similar to the French one. So far it's just an idea, nothing specific.

Hussars and Chevaulegers are both similar to the current Hussars, the major difference being that the new Hussars would be lighter, cheaper and faster while the Chevauleger is the heavier version. Some civs get only Chevs others only Hussars and some both. Through that distribution we can control a lil how aggressive and versatile the role of each civ's melee cavalry can be. It's mainly a cost-efficiency thing and it gives us more possibilities to cover more unique hand cavalrymen of a civ through royal guards.


So you are still in the concept part? May i give you some sugestions?

Cuiraissers: their armors were pretty eficient against pistols and other hand weapons( sabers). Why not make theam a cav with close combat resistance especialized at killing musketers/other heavy cav? Or heavy cav especialized at killing dragons/other cav ( dragons= pistols). Or just keep than as ultra tankie trample units.

It would also be cool if each countire royal cuiraiss would be diferent ( russia one faster, french + hp, german more area damage etc).
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A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:19 am    Post subject:

While nearly every monarchy in Europe employed some sort of elite cavalry I doubt it is beneficial if everyone gets cuirassiers.

I know it's tempting to create more cavalry units, simply because there is more variety there than with infantry with all those would-be-kings and such giving their troops fancy names to bolster their own renown. But you mentioned it-much can be achieved through RG-upgrades. On the other hand having too many RG is confusing because now there is also a new design with every upgrade and difficult to consider balancewise. And actually-a RG is not that good to be honest. You buy 10% combat improvement with an additional 400 wood and coin each. Something which might be difficult to afford when playing with a mixed army. That pays off in lategame for often used units but not that much in any normal game.


So what can be done here?
1. Mercenary unit.
Because nearly every court employed a unit of heavy cavalry-why not create a generic unit, available for everyone that features considerable hp and good armour but is not available at the normal stable thus keeping the roster clean there. Perfect to replace mamelukes as super-heavy-cavalry which could be turned into a lighter unit in return. There are various names to describe such units, most notable of course the Garde du corps which is currently a unique German unit.
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Silmariel
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:03 am    Post subject:

While writing the above statement about introducing some new lifeguard-cavalry as mercenary a different idea sprang to my mind.
Basically everything centers about-how do you picture the upcoming cheveauleger?

I already told Tilanus several times that making cheveauleger and hussar such similar units will not work. Considering all those public announced information about them, that is, of course. I dont know any intern plans. He does not believe which I dont mind, playtesting will eventually show.

Anyway, there should only one additional generic cavalry unit. The other one would easily fit as mercenary unit*. We could have cuirassiers for everybody and Bavarian Cheveaulegers as mercenaries or cheveaulegers for everybody and a Garde du Corps** mercenary from any not yet depicted German state for example.

Crude numbers for such a units veteran stats-again this could now be called cheveauleger or cuirassier:
HP 400 / speed 6.25 / attack 30 (1 splash) /siege 18 /150 food and 100 coin.
So, somewhat nerfed French cuirassiers (French could still keep their special heavy cavalry as Gendarmes all-way-through without a RG) or get the same cavalry as everybody else but with RG and appropriate shipments. Most important point is here-it's battlefield cavalry which hits hard and can take a lot of damage. But they are bad looters and thus have a low siege attack unlike their hussar brothers. So even at lategame hussars might be viable simply because they perform so much better against buildungs (and maybe villagers with a x1.2 bonus). Currently Gendarmes' siege attack is only second to Russian oprichniks' and with their massive hp and splash they perform even better on some occasians when it comes to slaughtering villagers, even if they are supposed to be safe behind a wall, or ten.

*With the Finnish hakapelit now a regular unit I think mamelukes should take the place as a high damage, low hp unit while a new mercenary unit Bavarian Cheveauleger/German Garde du Corps would get mameluke's role as the cavalry-tank in game. That would suit their historic roles much better in my opinion.

**I know of course that the GdC is an already used name. We still have the issue with German Bannerarmies which do not really work for me. Again, playtesting will show if they work for anybody else. But the issue is-bannerarmies should at least be consisting of similar units, unit types. In my opinion this should be one native unit, one regular unit which is not directly available for the Germans. And as Saxony will get a not-yet-revealed native heavy cavalry unit it's clear in my opinion that this unit should be paired with whatever this new generic cavalry unit is.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:30 pm    Post subject:

Ah, Silmariel, you're always writing way too much - and always so pessimistic about new developments. Introducing the Chevauleger like we plan to is a good first step into the right direction. It'll not be a perfect and extremely sophisticated addition right from the start, but this is also clearly not the intention, because it would balance-wise be way too risky. What the hell are you expecting? And why badmouth something that's meant to pave the road for greater adjustments in the future?

And please stop acting towards me like a teacher who 'told Tilanus already several times' not to do stuff Silmariel doesn't agree with. Razz I rejected your objections as much already and you won't achieve a change by repeating your personal concerns over and over again. I'm always listening, considering and often appreciating your comments, but in the end they remain one comment, one opinion out of many.

So, to prevent making this any longer I'll just say this:
  • I intend to make a cuirassier-themed mercenary, but it'll not be part of the NE3 plans for historical "battlefield cavalry".
  • Since the historical cuirassier units that are of interest for us are usually late 18th/early 19th century units Chevauleger RGs are definitely an alternative to standard cuirs
  • Other possibilities are civ-specific GdCs and Church and possibly even University tech units. These multiple options allow me to dose "the amount and impact of cuirassier appearances in every civ".
  • Bavarian Chevaulegers would not suit as tanks and the German banner armies can be modeled to whatever seems reasonable to Silmariel the NE team. Razz

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:46 am    Post subject:

Tilanus Commodor wrote:
Ah, Silmariel, you're always writing way too much - and always so pessimistic about new developments. Introducing the Chevauleger like we plan to is a good first step into the right direction. It'll not be a perfect and extremely sophisticated addition right from the start, but this is also clearly not the intention, because it would balance-wise be way too risky. What the hell are you expecting? And why badmouth something that's meant to pave the road for greater adjustments in the future?

And please stop acting towards me like a teacher who 'told Tilanus already several times' not to do stuff Silmariel doesn't agree with. Razz I rejected your objections as much already and you won't achieve a change by repeating your personal concerns over and over again. I'm always listening, considering and often appreciating your comments, but in the end they remain one comment, one opinion out of many.

So, to prevent making this any longer I'll just say this:
  • I intend to make a cuirassier-themed mercenary, but it'll not be part of the NE3 plans for historical "battlefield cavalry".
  • Since the historical cuirassier units that are of interest for us are usually late 18th/early 19th century units Chevauleger RGs are definitely an alternative to standard cuirs
  • Other possibilities are civ-specific GdCs and Church and possibly even University tech units. These multiple options allow me to dose "the amount and impact of cuirassier appearances in every civ".
  • Bavarian Chevaulegers would not suit as tanks and the German banner armies can be modeled to whatever seems reasonable to Silmariel the NE team. Razz


I am sorry tilanus but i think i will need to agree with Tilaniel. To be fair the original aoe3 cav system is already cool. Keep cuiraissers as french uus, and keep the uhlans ;( they are so cool ( and work damm well with prussia). In contrast tought, a new lancer looks awesome xD
_________________
A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:26 am    Post subject:

I'm also sorry to say that I have to ignore your post for the fact it doesn't address anything I said. In fact I didn't say any of the things you were objecting to. No one is talking about removing French cuirs and you're the first to bring up Uhlans.
And once again for everyone: You don't have to feel sorry for me, because in the end I will do what I think is best for the mod. So if anyone in here should feel sorry, than me for the reason that I can neither consider nor agree with everyone's comments.
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