USA 2016
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Who would you vote for?
Donald Trump
9%
 9%  [ 2 ]
Ted Cruz
14%
 14%  [ 3 ]
John Kasich
9%
 9%  [ 2 ]
Hillary Clinton
23%
 23%  [ 5 ]
Bernie Sanders
42%
 42%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 21

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UnstoppableStreletsy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:32 am    Post subject:

I agree ted cruz is a lying little girl. I do not like him because he is a pussy like the other republicans against trump. The reason why these retarded liberals get into office be because the republican party is always fighting itself. I wouldnt be surprised if hillary clinton pays people off like cruz to destroy trump. Isnt it weird the establishment government hates him so much since he could destroy the two parties for good and have one unified one which would equal smaller pay checks for both parties. Trump's real strength is being divergent. They want a monarchy of sorts in the country where both parties want rule with a iron grip.
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Crazy Crusher
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:24 pm    Post subject:

Yup. You would expect the majority of gamers to be young educated people. That is where Bernie does the best. No surprise that Bernie Sanders is most popular on this site.

I am an Australian that moved to USA because I am a Freedom lover. If I could vote, it would have been Rand Paul.

My favourite in order are:

1. Ted Cruz
"Guns and Bible." "Land of the free." This is what made America great. Cruz is all about this. I have my doubts about him though.

2. Donald Trump
He is a pragmatist. Not very smart and doesn't understand conservatism, but at this point, someone who has no idea what he's doing would be way better that whatever the establishment comes up with.

3. Bernie Sanders
Deluded. That's it.

4. John Kasich
Classic establishment candidate. Also, a cheat (because he is relying on winning without the popular vote).

5. Hillary Clinton
HELL.
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UnstoppableStreletsy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:06 pm    Post subject:

to add on to your tier list, kasich is a pawn to the establishment to block trump in rust belt states which he only accomplished in his own freakin state which he almost lost still. Bernie is a socialist just trying out liberalism for the first time. Either Trump or Cruz are legitimate candidates. I think trump is slightly better overall.
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caveman909
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:25 pm    Post subject:

Crazy Crusher wrote:

"Guns and Bible." "Land of the free." This is what made America great.


Guns and Bible = what made America great? Really?

You may call Bernie Sanders's ideas deluded, but his vision is clearly focused on the american people. And if you already start with the corruption happening all over the US politics (whether it be in states or in Washington), you can't seriously think that the man you voted for will try his best to defend your point of views...
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UnstoppableStreletsy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:09 pm    Post subject:

Its childish to think that Bernie is honest no matter what. Was Mao honest when he said the chinese people would benifit to his rule. Is north korea and venuzuala looking like great nations today? Bernie is a communist and he is being chosen by college kids who dont know the real world and how socialism can ruin a great country like america. You need to contain communism not spread it. I do admit bernie would be better than clinton not because he is idealogically superior but because while hillary can get anything accomplished with her connections in wall street and organized crime from bill, bernie's reforms wouldnt be passed and we couldnt get any worse than we are now yet we wouldnt improve. What hillary did with the emails is treason and should be dealt with by capital punishment
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roy1012
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:34 pm    Post subject:

Let me get something straight: even if you cut military spending by 100%, taxed 100% of all 1 million + incomes for 10 years you still could not pay for Bernie's propositions. So, rip.
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UnstoppableStreletsy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:07 am    Post subject:

and you wonder why college kids with a IQ of 70 or below like this bernie so much. I thought about it for a while now and my only conclusion is these people have either a really screwed imagination of equality, or he reminds them of grandpa. There was this one loser i met once. I asked them why they would vote for bernie and they said "he looks so cute" and these retards are going run our nation in a few years, great. They will be played by smarter countries like china, japan and mexico. I am sick of it. I am sick of crooks like clinton who never mind end up in jail where they belong but have the gall to be a president. Once she gets in because she already bought the election, we will not be able to vote for a non liberal ever again with the illegal immigrant loyalists and welfare and food stamp nigers on thier side. The only 100% fool proof way I can think of stopping this is either a second revolution or a genocide of illegal immigrants done by the town officials. One thing we need to do is ban marijuana because these kids cant afford to lose brain cells when they have so few to begin with. Does anyone watch watters world on the oreily factor on fox news. There you will learn who is hillary, and bernie's voter base on the white side.
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caveman909
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:32 pm    Post subject:

UnstoppableStreletsy wrote:
Its childish to think that Bernie is honest no matter what. Was Mao honest when he said the chinese people would benifit to his rule. Is north korea and venuzuala looking like great nations today? Bernie is a communist and he is being chosen by college kids who dont know the real world and how socialism can ruin a great country like america. You need to contain communism not spread it. I do admit bernie would be better than clinton not because he is idealogically superior but because while hillary can get anything accomplished with her connections in wall street and organized crime from bill, bernie's reforms wouldnt be passed and we couldnt get any worse than we are now yet we wouldnt improve. What hillary did with the emails is treason and should be dealt with by capital punishment

I'm sorry but spreading accusations like you do ist just
- pointless
- useless in an argumentation point of view
- stupid (and still hope it's trolling)
I'll be back to you when you actually have constructive arguments.

@Roy: I'd like to see where you found this information. As I said, he may ask for quite a lot of money (as every socialist), but think long term. Here's an example: is it better to spend money on education, or to give tax breaks on firms doing well?

About the first case: you spend more money, but you'll find yourself with less criminals f.ex. (I can link you to scientific papers for that if you want). You all know what poor people with too much time doing nothing can potentially do... Stupid stuff, or in extreme situation horrible things. Nothing is absolut, don't get me wrong. But the social and economic situatation is a very important risk factor for criminality. And criminality is very costy, for the global society (in damages, insecurity feeling, prison costs and so on...).

Now the second case: you'll find yourself with some firms giving you money in the form of taxes, but do you find it right to have differences between firms? Those special firms may give you jobs, but for how long till they ask for more tax cuts? Is it morally right to give special cuts to some firms and let the other small ones pay the normal price?
Bigger firms could mean more jobs, but does it make it more justified to give them gifts, instead of asking them to be responsible as every other firm? It's a philosophical question. If you're successful enough (what big firms are), why make the difference with the others even more intense? Don't they make enough profit already?

In my point of view, spending money doesn't mean spending it with no good reasons. And there are a few domains where spending money seems more justified to me than gaining some in "morally-disturbing" ways...

To finish this (long) post, I'd say that it's better to have good-willing politicians with measures that are looking too extreme to some (college free tuition and debt free college), and trying to find a compromise between the opponents and his ideas. Because at the moment, the actual US college system is just incredibly insane (and even Ted Cruz told it...)
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Girafarig
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:03 am    Post subject:

roy1012 wrote:
Let me get something straight: even if you cut military spending by 100%, taxed 100% of all 1 million + incomes for 10 years you still could not pay for Bernie's propositions. So, rip.


You'd be surprised by just how much money the US spends on military and other stuff.

The thing is, what Sanders proposes isn't so far-fetched. You have the nordic countries, for example, where healthcare is free, the welfare state is in full motion and there's low income inequality. Sure, the tax rate is very high (around 50% in Denmark, I believe) but in exchange you get free healthcare and pensions. Tuition is free in such rich and powerful states (?) such as Cuba or even here, in Argentina.

And that's pretty much the expensive part of his programme. The rest cannabis legalization, abortion, etc. doesn't cost as much or even saves some money.
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roy1012
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:04 am    Post subject:

There's a lot to respond to, you guys have been busy, so i'll try my best to address everybody's points.

@streletsy: I think you raise some decent points, voters are really stupid. "I'm voting for him because hes black" "im voting for him because shes a woman" "im voting for him because he looks so cute." in my opinion, i think that if you can't run for the office, you shouldnt be able to vote who gets into it (voting age at 35). That way, people will be able to think more, think for what their family needs, think what their country needs, and vote more intelligently, rather than "i want sanders because i want to smoke weed"

@caveman: I got that from a meme xD. But to be quite honest, theres probably some truth to it. I come from an upper middle class family, and my grandfather is vastly rich, so you can see why I don't like bernie and his socialism. My grandfather has millions of dollars not because the government handed it to him, but because he worked day and night, hard for 30 years to make that fortune. It is morally wrong for the government to steal money from him and hand it over to some 18 year old freeloader who is too lazy to ge ta job at mcdonalds and smokes weed everyday. Thats not fair, is it?

@girafarig: Yes, the USA spends 78% more on their military than china. You know my theory has always been if your not at war, dont spend money on the military, or at least a gargauntuan amount that the USA does, somewhere around 600 billion dollars. In victoria 2 (i know real life governments aren't like victoria 2, but just bear with me), when im not at war i lower my military spending to about 5%, and then when im at war i raise it to 100%. the USA isn't really "at war", we havent been "at war" since world war 2. There aren't really "Wars" per say if you look at how world war 2 was fought, theres more of conflicts, and we aren't really getting involved even in syria or iraq these days because the general population is angry that we were already there.

Sure, his propositions aren't far fetched in places like Denmark and Sweden with smaller populations that are used to this, but when people see that 50% of their income is going to the government to pay for these programs, they won't be happy. I have a friend from Denmark, hes perfectly happy paying that much because of what he gets. However, it sipmly wouldnt work here. There are thousands of universities and to reform that would cost trillions of dollars, something the government doesn't have.

For abortion, i'm against that because of a moral standpoint (I'm Catholic.)

And as for Weed legalization, I really don't know how I feel about that. I think we should watch Colorado, Washington, Alaska and the other places that have already legalized it and see how their crime rates are effected, how much money comes in, etc. I personally don't care because I don't use it, I calculated that using weed would cost me over $1000 per year, and I don't even have enough money to buy my friend the Charlemagne Ck2 DLC lol
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caveman909
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:58 pm    Post subject:

roy1012 wrote:
There's a lot to respond to, you guys have been busy, so i'll try my best to address everybody's points.

@streletsy: I think you raise some decent points, voters are really stupid. "I'm voting for him because hes black" "im voting for him because shes a woman" "im voting for him because he looks so cute." in my opinion, i think that if you can't run for the office, you shouldnt be able to vote who gets into it (voting age at 35). That way, people will be able to think more, think for what their family needs, think what their country needs, and vote more intelligently, rather than "i want sanders because i want to smoke weed"

@caveman: I got that from a meme xD. But to be quite honest, theres probably some truth to it. I come from an upper middle class family, and my grandfather is vastly rich, so you can see why I don't like bernie and his socialism. My grandfather has millions of dollars not because the government handed it to him, but because he worked day and night, hard for 30 years to make that fortune. It is morally wrong for the government to steal money from him and hand it over to some 18 year old freeloader who is too lazy to ge ta job at mcdonalds and smokes weed everyday. Thats not fair, is it?


Oh about Cruz, I wasn't thinking about your meme specifically Razz

To jump on your answer to streletsy:
Many voters dont think much before voting, thats correct (I heard of people voting only for Clinton because of the name, not even knowing the opponent's name). But I saw exactly the same stupidity with Trump: people associate the name to success (why, I dunno), and make him some kind of "superstar-of-the-people". A demonstration was made with Trump supporters, giving them quotes from Trump to judge and explain why they supported them. But in fact, those quotes were all from Hitler, and when the journalist told them, the supporters just didn't believe him...(and that's only one of the problem of Trump).

Anyway, back to your response: I clearly see your point of view and can understand your fear of the "Big State", especially in America where major drifs were sadly made. But imagine the global picture: should poor people pay the same amount of taxes as rich people? Clearly, I'd say yes (and Sanders is for it too).

But now, what happend in the US in the last decades? Many rich people/firms/banks didnt want to pay taxes in the US, and so made offshores accounts and other tricks like these (I studied some of them, and really its wicked...), as the Panama Leaks well illustrates this tendecy. This is something I'll never understand: when will you have enough money? Hundreds of millions? Billions? And this doesn't help the society. Even if those firms give many jobs to Americans, they're making more profit on their back than actually helping the US society.

And then after the 2007-2008 bubble, what happend? The State saved some of the big banks which public money, when they clearly made stupid choices and options. I find it hilarious that some would still highly support an only and solely neo-liberalist state, saying "you're the only one responsible for your mistakes" when speaking against universal healthcare....

Now globally speaking, wouldn't it be correct/legit to have more control of what the rich firms/banks/etc. make of their money? The tax on Wall Street is for me principally symbolic: you want to punish the Elites for their previous misconduct, for which they never were. But in addition, you'll have money for the state too. The goal isn't to make it a punishment forever, but after the billions that were reinjected in the banking system, I think it would be fair to ask a lil counterpart from them to the American people.

To finally add about you mentioning your family: the fact that your grandfather made a fortune is very honorable and remarkable! I agree that some people are so lazy to find jobs, and that sometimes, you'd prefer to let them on the streets. But that makes me think 2 things:

- 1. You need to push them in the right direction, doing nothing wont help.
- 2. Having people like these doesn't mean you grandfather isn't part of the society, and should pay taxes as everybody, dont you think? Smile

You'll maybe say "those jobless wont pay taxes either", but is the situation similar? Poor and not paying tax or rich and not paying tax? I guess there's no real debate on what to choose lol

The wrong part of left-extremism is to punish succesfull people/firms and wanting to tax them like hell, and that's not an adequate response. That is also clearly not the goal of Sanders, which key word about those problems seems to me to be: fairness. Be fair, and you'll make a better society. If you have fair treatment and not "special-1st class-ultra capitalism" treatments (and no "super poor-but im lazy to find work-pls still help me" treatments aswell, dont misunderstand it), then the society will be able to forget about those problems, and lower the tensions between social classes Smile
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roy1012
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:30 pm    Post subject:

I personally believe in the Parliamentary system, where the MP's vote for the Prime Minister. The fact that in 2008 and 2012 someone was voted into the most powerful position in the USA simply "because hes black" is abominable and quite honestly insulting. People are stupid and uneducated, you and I. I don't know whats best for the country and neither do you. However, if you have the educated politicians vote for who will lead the country, they might not be the greatest people ever but they are more well educated and understand things of politics much better than the average voter. And with your thing about Trump & Hitler, those videos are infamously hilarious. I saw one where Clinton supporters wanted Hillary because she "supports" Sharia Law.

I don't mind the rich paying taxes, he doesn't mind it, I've talked to him about it. He is perfectly fine with paying taxes. Being rich is one thing, tax fraud is another. People who commit a crime should be punished, whether it be tax fraud, illegally crossing the border, etc.

But what doesn't make sense to me is taxing rich people more and poor people less, which liberals oftentimes suggest. In Victoria 2 (And yes, i know this isn't victoria 2) I tax the rich people at 1% so that they can build factories for me and boost the economy. Again, this isn't victoria 2 and wouldnt work IRL, i just wanted to put it out there xD

If everyone is taxed 25%, it is equal.

I don't like how Sanders villanizes the "1%", it makes me sick.

Sorry for the effort put into this post. My cat woke me up every half hour and I'm probably missing points in here.
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caveman909
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:45 pm    Post subject:

roy1012 wrote:
I personally believe in the Parliamentary system, where the MP's vote for the Prime Minister. The fact that in 2008 and 2012 someone was voted into the most powerful position in the USA simply "because hes black" is abominable and quite honestly insulting. People are stupid and uneducated, you and I. I don't know whats best for the country and neither do you. However, if you have the educated politicians vote for who will lead the country, they might not be the greatest people ever but they are more well educated and understand things of politics much better than the average voter. And with your thing about Trump & Hitler, those videos are infamously hilarious. I saw one where Clinton supporters wanted Hillary because she "supports" Sharia Law.

I don't mind the rich paying taxes, he doesn't mind it, I've talked to him about it. He is perfectly fine with paying taxes. Being rich is one thing, tax fraud is another. People who commit a crime should be punished, whether it be tax fraud, illegally crossing the border, etc.

But what doesn't make sense to me is taxing rich people more and poor people less, which liberals oftentimes suggest. In Victoria 2 (And yes, i know this isn't victoria 2) I tax the rich people at 1% so that they can build factories for me and boost the economy. Again, this isn't victoria 2 and wouldnt work IRL, i just wanted to put it out there xD

If everyone is taxed 25%, it is equal.

I don't like how Sanders villanizes the "1%", it makes me sick.

Sorry for the effort put into this post. My cat woke me up every half hour and I'm probably missing points in here.


Just to correct you: liberals often dont want taxes^^ They are more in a "everyone pays for himself and fuck society" way of thinking lol
And I like your comparisons to games, its funny x)

Anyway, I agree with you that you probably pointed out one thing that I think Sanders could be more understanding about: making the rich look bad isn't a way to have a strong society But what he's talking about when pointing out the 1% is the incredible income inequality, demonstrating this huge problem that no other politician pointed out. The virulent attitude of Sanders is, in my point of view, pointed to the corporations avoiding taxes with the techniques I mentioned above, while the US having "poorer" poors. Not against the rich specifically (which everyone is trying to make look like, like streletsy or Republicans), but at the bad rich citizens.

Also, he mentions a special tax but for somebody earning more than 3.5mio (and the tax would count for the supplement). This tax on the supplements of a salary bigger than 3.5mio concerns only 0.3 of the US population...

After all, its a way of thinking the society: should the succesfull help the society or enjoy their "success" (meaning their income)? Probably a bit of both I'd say But for the moment, it seems that most of them are focused on enjoying and being more rich than really caring about everyone else. And if you're billionaire, then what harm do you get by paying a lil' more than poor people?
Say 20% for very poor and 30% for very rich, as an example:
- income of the poor: say 15k-20k/year Arrow 20% = 3k-4k in taxes, meaing 12-16k left.
- income of the billionaire: say 20mio/year Arrow 30% = 6.3mio in taxes, meaning 14.7mio left.
Now you'll say "its not realistic", but its just to show than even if you higher a lil bit the tax for the highest incomes, they dont end up so badly as Republicans would suggest. C'mon, with 14 mio you could buy yourself
140 Tesla Model S.
lol
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UnstoppableStreletsy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:16 pm    Post subject:

The liberals are like the russian civ. The immagrants they employ may be 20% cheaper but the units are 40% weaker as well. It gets to a point that really, really cheap labour puts people out of work who need a realistic income. Im not biased here and this may just be another cycle that the irish, chinese, and italians had to go through not too long ago.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:35 am    Post subject:

UnstoppableStreletsy wrote:
The liberals are like the russian civ. The immagrants they employ may be 20% cheaper but the units are 40% weaker as well. It gets to a point that really, really cheap labour puts people out of work who need a realistic income. Im not biased here and this may just be another cycle that the irish, chinese, and italians had to go through not too long ago.


For once I agree with you (for some parts, meaning immigrants have often lower incomes than the average), but what's funny is that Trump is one of those liberals who had many poor-paid immigrants working in his hotels/casinos...
And then you want a candidate "for the people" and "Make America great again" (when you obviously didn't make anything against a so-called "abyssal US politic"). That's a joke...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:46 am    Post subject:

the key for trump is he does not want anymore low lifes from latin america (beleive me all of the immagrants are the low lifes and cant contribute to the human race) to come in to our country and is willing to kick out the ones that are already here
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