USA 2016
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Who would you vote for?
Donald Trump
9%
 9%  [ 2 ]
Ted Cruz
14%
 14%  [ 3 ]
John Kasich
9%
 9%  [ 2 ]
Hillary Clinton
23%
 23%  [ 5 ]
Bernie Sanders
42%
 42%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 21

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caveman909
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:12 pm    Post subject:

UnstoppableStreletsy wrote:
the key for trump is he does not want anymore low lifes from latin america (beleive me all of the immagrants are the low lifes and cant contribute to the human race) to come in to our country and is willing to kick out the ones that are already here

When you talk about "low lifes", I fear that you are engagin into a KKK speech. And I wont engage in such primitive debates, sorry.
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Girafarig
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:34 am    Post subject:

caveman909 wrote:
UnstoppableStreletsy wrote:
the key for trump is he does not want anymore low lifes from latin america (beleive me all of the immagrants are the low lifes and cant contribute to the human race) to come in to our country and is willing to kick out the ones that are already here

When you talk about "low lifes", I fear that you are engagin into a KKK speech. And I wont engage in such primitive debates, sorry.


Don't feed the troll.
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roy1012
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:31 pm    Post subject:

What Streletsy is trying to say is that he's against some immigration, which I can understand. There a guy who has worked at my parents office for 25 years, an immigrant and he works hard. But people who just come here because they want benefits are of no help towards the country.
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caveman909
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:17 pm    Post subject:

Girafarig wrote:
caveman909 wrote:
UnstoppableStreletsy wrote:
the key for trump is he does not want anymore low lifes from latin america (beleive me all of the immagrants are the low lifes and cant contribute to the human race) to come in to our country and is willing to kick out the ones that are already here

When you talk about "low lifes", I fear that you are engagin into a KKK speech. And I wont engage in such primitive debates, sorry.


Don't feed the troll.


Trolls have nothing to do in debates...especially by speaking like that.

@Roy: True, but does it mean there are "low lifes"?
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roy1012
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:19 pm    Post subject:

Well, its a poor word choice. Sure, you could call it trollish, but I can understand his frustration.
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UnstoppableStreletsy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:10 pm    Post subject:

I live in a town that is wealthy. 3 of the surrounding towns are burnt out, and organized crime is rampant because of immagrant gangs like ms13. Theres murders, drug arrests, and the towns that have immagrants are undesirable places to be. The greedy liberal officials in my town want to build tenements in the town which would certainly invite them to my town. These are the same fools who let the center of town have 2 drug stores, and 2 liquor stores only literally and you dont think the illegals in the new apartments wont want to cause crime around there. Third they want to build trails around town so the immagrants can commit a crime an get away on bike where the police cant get to them by car and some of the trails even connect to the destroyed communities and there home territory where the immagrants first popped up 30 years ago. If you do not live in america, you do not have to worry about looking behind your back everyday these days worried abotu being murdered and robbed. Without guns how can be defend ourselves against organized criminals who are not citizens and undocumented? The kkk really? Theres a difference between lunging at someones throat out of aggression and being on a defensive stance in the face of danger an uncertainty. Let me tell you to be honest, we have had so many problems related to welfare blacks and illegals that the kkk just looks as good as any politcal party in america.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:35 am    Post subject:

Streletsy I don't mean this as an ad hominem but after your postings about WoL everywhere and now all of this, well I have a hard time thinking you aren't just trolling.

Now moving on I note that Sanders has a lead here, I will also disclose that I prefer Clinton. Now now put don't the pitchforks I am not a shill or corrupt hawk, I am merely a pragmatist. Saying that also stings a little to me because I am in LD debate and am all about virtues and ethics, but politics is a land of what is pragmatic, so keep that in mind. I like Sanders, to be honest I should probably prefer him to Hillary as I like to think of myself as a utilitarian socialist, but I recognize that he would be destroyed. He has essentially endorsed socialism, and while I myself am a Soc.Dem I recognize the dangers and sting of such a word to many of the voting populace. That and let us be honest, even if Sanders some how won a general, he has no real policies, he is very vague and has not given very many plans, Clinton works well in the details and plans, a true technocrat really. Clinton is a solid bet for continuing the legacy of this administration and truly is basically already the Democrat candidate.

Moving on, I will also give my endorsements for Republicans who hopefully will also understand that while I label myself soc.dem at times and am hence probably something along the lines of the boogeyman to, I am pretty moderate and have even swung libertarian. Out of the current line up I choose Kasich, but I think the dream scenario is a brokered convention with Romney, Huntsman, or Ryan getting the nomination.

Just my two cents, feel free to discuss them with me!

Also side note, ho my goodness golly me this whole thread is terrible and is a sad representation of the state of political discourse
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UnstoppableStreletsy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:13 am    Post subject:

Well I think Hillary in general is a two faced criminal. She will say whatever she wants that will get her elected. She let nations in the middle east fall into chaos. If you don't believe that she is a crook just look at the super delegate count. 95% of super delegates want clinton. They are being payed off because of her husband bill who has connections in wall street like the mafia does only much bigger. Many people say liberals are like the mafia for this reason.
Now onto the brokered convention. If the party just chooses someone the people who wanted cruz, and trump will revolt because they know thier voices don't matter anymore. John kasich is the last person I would consider because he is also given a favor for staying the race and messing up the polls. He has no real advantages which we need right now.
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caveman909
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:31 pm    Post subject:

Orwell wrote:

Now moving on I note that Sanders has a lead here, I will also disclose that I prefer Clinton. Now now put don't the pitchforks I am not a shill or corrupt hawk, I am merely a pragmatist. Saying that also stings a little to me because I am in LD debate and am all about virtues and ethics, but politics is a land of what is pragmatic, so keep that in mind. I like Sanders, to be honest I should probably prefer him to Hillary as I like to think of myself as a utilitarian socialist, but I recognize that he would be destroyed. He has essentially endorsed socialism, and while I myself am a Soc.Dem I recognize the dangers and sting of such a word to many of the voting populace. That and let us be honest, even if Sanders some how won a general, he has no real policies, he is very vague and has not given very many plans, Clinton works well in the details and plans, a true technocrat really. Clinton is a solid bet for continuing the legacy of this administration and truly is basically already the Democrat candidate.


I see what you mean, but actually Sanders has a very detailed plan if you go watch his webstie at berniesanders.com. I also asked myself "why doesnt he talk more about specific details of his programs", but I'm sure his team has some reasons (maybe because of reasons like "the average people that didnt know you want to know the basics of your policies", who knows...). Clinton may be a technocrat, but as Streletsy said, she's changing her mind about things she said very often, and at the beginning when I didn't have a position, I found her very hypocrite in her own way. She doesn't look like someone who you could trust.
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roy1012
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:45 pm    Post subject:

I personally believe that everyone should have the option to vote for trump, cruz, sanders or hillary in the general election. Then you have options to choose from. Like, each party puts forth two candidates. So for example, say Cruz gets the nomination, staunch Trump supporters like streletsy will be like well i hate cruz and i hate sanders/clinton so im not going to vote, but if you had 4 choices instead of 2, you'd have more options to choose from and be able to pick who YOU want, rather than voting for the person because he is of your party.
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UnstoppableStreletsy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:11 pm    Post subject:

If we did get a choice like that, the bickering would be minimized. Also instead of doing individual state primaries why can't people choose their candidate in one night so unpopular candidates cannot stall the election process? We could do it in June so enough people have time to choose who they want to be the nominee of their respective party.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:58 pm    Post subject:

Or we could just swap to the alternative vote?

Anyhow first off, everyone ignored my critique of Sanders that never and I mean ever would his policies pass a Republican congress! Now you say Hillary is two-faced, flip flops, she changes with time, isn't that a good thing? Sanders needs to discuss the details, it's a little rude to assume the populace is too stupid to get it. One must accept Hillary as the pragmatic choice. Now mind you, I understand all the critiques, in earnest I do, I actually really like Sanders, but again Clinton basically has the nomination.

Also Unstoppable, I can't reply to an ad hominem attack on Clinton so sorry

Really what I think would be a nicer and hopefully less dogmatic approach is to discuss who the GOP should choose at a brokered convention.
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UnstoppableStreletsy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:07 am    Post subject:

The only way a brokered convention will solve anything is if the people get tp have a say there as well. You can't forget the cheating Ted Cruz commited in hawaii, iowa, and other places saying canidates were dropping out of the race by phone calls and things may be different this time around.
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roy1012
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:17 am    Post subject:

The problem is that Trump is a bit too radical for many voters and Cruz is not strong enough. Trump is a strong leader but he is hated by many, and Cruz doesn't have the balls to do anything too rash.
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caveman909
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:32 am    Post subject:

Orwell wrote:
Or we could just swap to the alternative vote?

Anyhow first off, everyone ignored my critique of Sanders that never and I mean ever would his policies pass a Republican congress! Now you say Hillary is two-faced, flip flops, she changes with time, isn't that a good thing? Sanders needs to discuss the details, it's a little rude to assume the populace is too stupid to get it. One must accept Hillary as the pragmatic choice. Now mind you, I understand all the critiques, in earnest I do, I actually really like Sanders, but again Clinton basically has the nomination.

Also Unstoppable, I can't reply to an ad hominem attack on Clinton so sorry

Really what I think would be a nicer and hopefully less dogmatic approach is to discuss who the GOP should choose at a brokered convention.


It depends if the flip flops are about central points of your political agenda (as a person, its good to be flexible in your positions, but in politics and when talking about core values, you can't jump to the other side whenever you like -Arrow where is the trust then?).
I'm not saying people are stupid, ut you gotta admit that many of them dont think much before voting, see my example of Clinton voters in precedent post. Sanders was always an outsider, and presented in the medias as such (when he wins, its ok, when its Clinton, its some kind of phenomenon).

So, as an outsider, if you want the people to know your core values, you tell them the basic point of views and opinions that you have, not all in detail. But all this thing we're discussing is relevant if the Sanders team actually didnt present their agenda as detailed as on their website because of the reasons mentioned above (I could be wrong!).
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:11 am    Post subject:

Again any plan can't pass though, much like if Jill Stein was elected. Perhaps that is a good thing, but any plan's she or Sanders would have would be ruthlessly murdered on the Senate floor, Caesar style. Now I now you say the same will happen to Hillary, but she is much less of an ideologue and willing to compromise and is also just generally stronger, Bernie has no plans to stop obstructionism. Also he's all about a "Revolution" well why is there no down-ticket funding! I love Bernie a lot but he has some major deep faults. Also side nitpic I dislike his stance on nuclear
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