Some things that you might want to add in Asia civs.
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
   Forum Index -> NE Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
The last Austriahungarian
Continental Marine
Continental Marine


Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 159
Location: Brasil

PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:44 pm    Post subject: Some things that you might want to add in Asia civs.

First , i have been searching about japan and china during the NE timeline and acording to my studies looks like that the TRUE artilery civ should be the manchu ( china). Why you may ask, and there are two reasons for that.

1: Manchu (qing) had the higuest number or canons in the world.

Ya see, during this time period most armies had 1 canon for every 1000 man, and armies such as the sweden one that had 6 each a thousand were considered INOVATIVE. Well during Kangxi period the number of canons was of 1 EACH 100 MEN. And this was in times of peace , because during war it could be a much bigger number( in the qing russo wars for example there were battles with 26 canons per 1000 men! I think it would be interesting ( and historical acurate ) if each banner army or shipment came with a small canon.

2: qing had the BEST canons in the world.

This is the f= eurocentrism part because the chinese developed the first canon balls designed to fix into the canon ( i dont know how to say this in english but the canon balls were know as mother/ son projectiles) and this would allow for the fastest rate of fire in the whole world. They also had a litlle less range BUT fire rate was much for important at that time in battlefields.
_________________
A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The last Austriahungarian
Continental Marine
Continental Marine


Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 159
Location: Brasil

PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:59 pm    Post subject:

Also it's true that in Asia there were musketers, but they were diferent since they didn't have bayonets. You have added that persian musketer with a long range multiplier vs cav, i sugest your team to make this a generic tech tree "asian musketer".
_________________
A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zooasaurus
Italian Utili
Italian Utili


Joined: 16 Jan 2016
Posts: 161
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:07 pm    Post subject:

The last Austriahungarian wrote:
Also it's true that in Asia there were musketers, but they were diferent since they didn't have bayonets. You have added that persian musketer with a long range multiplier vs cav, i sugest your team to make this a generic tech tree "asian musketer".

if you mean generic musketeer units for all Asian civs, i don't agree for the sake of diversity
_________________
Gib SSR plz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The last Austriahungarian
Continental Marine
Continental Marine


Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 159
Location: Brasil

PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:12 pm    Post subject:

Zooasaurus wrote:
The last Austriahungarian wrote:
Also it's true that in Asia there were musketers, but they were diferent since they didn't have bayonets. You have added that persian musketer with a long range multiplier vs cav, i sugest your team to make this a generic tech tree "asian musketer".

if you mean generic musketeer units for all Asian civs, i don't agree for the sake of diversity


Well asian civs could also kinda of maitain a arwuebusier for late game but this is not 100% historicsm acurate....( manchu army was 60% conposed of muketers....).
_________________
A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ande59
Italian Utili
Italian Utili


Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 163
Location: Australia, "Down Under"

PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:19 am    Post subject:

I'm just thinking about gameplay (balance wise) for the Chinese civ to have a Musketeer-unit in one of their Banner Armies. They already have a wide variety of units to train... and one of the main weakness for the Chinese civ in terms of military IS Heavy Cavalry (they have a lot of strengths; high econ, diverse and cost-effective units, higher population, etc.)
If they were to have a musketeer, what would be the other unit to fill for the Banner army? Arquebus? Iron Flail? Maybe even a heavy-infantry army with Swordsmen and Musketeers? Or did I miss the announcement of the NE team removing Banner Armies? (Haven't seen any update regarding the Asian civs so I wouldn't know... again, I might have missed it.)

Thing is about the Musketeers is that they're a heavy ranged-infantry so an army composed of purely musketeers is very versatile as well as being cost-efficient and population-efficient compared to a pike/bow or halb/skirm (or in the Chinese case, sword/skirm) army. Granted, the two different compositions don't do the exact same task, but they are very similar.

Also I'm pretty sure the Chinese are also able to get Musketeers from the Consulate... can't remember.

Indians and Japanese already have Musketeer-type unit so... I don't think they need another musketeer-unit unless Sepoy and Ashigaru are being removed/reworked as Sepoy and Ashigaru are very good units.
_________________
A Roman walks into a bar, holds up two fingers and says "Five beers please."

"German Uhlan spam is lame" -StrelletToIndustrial
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TrollPrinceBilly XVII
Prussian Landwehr
Prussian Landwehr


Joined: 04 Apr 2016
Posts: 16
Location: Somewhere

PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:45 am    Post subject:

If i may.
There has been mention that the team wants to remove units asocaited with Britain and the East India Company from the Indiana main army. Meaning Sepoy's are possibly gonna get removed. (As well as Gurkhas and Sowars).
Also all asian civs have access to musketeers via the consulate.

Make of this as you will.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ande59
Italian Utili
Italian Utili


Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 163
Location: Australia, "Down Under"

PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:40 am    Post subject:

Ah yes now I remember. I also remember the discussion regarding Muslim civs (which included the Indians), thank you TrollPrince.
_________________
A Roman walks into a bar, holds up two fingers and says "Five beers please."

"German Uhlan spam is lame" -StrelletToIndustrial
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The last Austriahungarian
Continental Marine
Continental Marine


Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 159
Location: Brasil

PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:31 am    Post subject:

Also i forgot to add: the manchu army was constituded ( apart from a lot of artilery) 50 to 60% musketers, 5 to 10% heavy cav 10 to 20% cav archers and the rest overal swordsman and pikeman that interesting had really tought shields that acording to many russians historicians could stop ( depending on the situation)musketmusket bulets!( anti musketer unit swordsman type would be interesting Razz).
_________________
A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Orwell
Sharpshooter
Sharpshooter


Joined: 15 May 2014
Posts: 1169
Location: United States of America

PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:41 pm    Post subject:

Gonna be honest the whole shield stopping bullets thing sounds either really anecdotal or really old fire arms were in use

Now as the author of the Persian thread, I do pray that the Tofangchi(that is the name of the Persian musketeer we decided on right?) will not be appropriated to other civs. First off this would be highly inappropriate as that unit is specifically based on Nader Shah's tactics and so would be odd to put to other cultures. Not just that but Tofangchi are a Persian unit, like Zooasaurus let's stick to diversity

Moving on, can you prove that the Chinese had the best cannons because if that is true I find it odd that Napoleon is often given the role of best artillery commander and not just that but China lost most if not all engagements with a European power....

Also on cannon number, well maybe, I mean again sources please? If that is true I'd be happy to see the team implement a cannon much like the leather cannon to each banner army.

Also I don't mean to come off as an authority, I am not, and I do hope that team members will step in here to have their say. And I hope I did not overstep or anything in my words
_________________
"Man is the only creature that consumes without producing."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The last Austriahungarian
Continental Marine
Continental Marine


Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 159
Location: Brasil

PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:35 pm    Post subject:

Orwell wrote:
Gonna be honest the whole shield stopping bullets thing sounds either really anecdotal or really old fire arms were in use

Now as the author of the Persian thread, I do pray that the Tofangchi(that is the name of the Persian musketeer we decided on right?) will not be appropriated to other civs. First off this would be highly inappropriate as that unit is specifically based on Nader Shah's tactics and so would be odd to put to other cultures. Not just that but Tofangchi are a Persian unit, like Zooasaurus let's stick to diversity

Moving on, can you prove that the Chinese had the best cannons because if that is true I find it odd that Napoleon is often given the role of best artillery commander and not just that but China lost most if not all engagements with a European power....

Also on cannon number, well maybe, I mean again sources please? If that is true I'd be happy to see the team implement a cannon much like the leather cannon to each banner army.

Also I don't mean to come off as an authority, I am not, and I do hope that team members will step in here to have their say. And I hope I did not overstep or anything in my words


About the shields: sorry i should have sad that it could block ata certain distance. Razz

Also, i understand about the persia musketer, but in that case we still need to find a musketer non european for the chinese :/
_________________
A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Orwell
Sharpshooter
Sharpshooter


Joined: 15 May 2014
Posts: 1169
Location: United States of America

PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:04 pm    Post subject:

Still a source would be nice, I'd love to read about these awesome shields!

And what is wrong with the current Arquebus? I mean I get they had musketeers but is anything wrong with the actual unit?
_________________
"Man is the only creature that consumes without producing."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zooasaurus
Italian Utili
Italian Utili


Joined: 16 Jan 2016
Posts: 161
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:25 am    Post subject:

I also read in an osprey book that indeed qing used cannons and guns, but still objected to them. The ming was even better because they realized their big, slow and cumbersome cannons as unreliable in battlefield and relied on European, mostly portuguese for cannons instead
_________________
Gib SSR plz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The last Austriahungarian
Continental Marine
Continental Marine


Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 159
Location: Brasil

PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:28 am    Post subject:

Zooasaurus wrote:
I also read in an osprey book that indeed qing used cannons and guns, but still objected to them. The ming was even better because they realized their big, slow and cumbersome cannons as unreliable in battlefield and relied on European, mostly portuguese for cannons instead


Well i dont know much about the MING since i read about the QING ( manchu) lol
_________________
A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The last Austriahungarian
Continental Marine
Continental Marine


Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 159
Location: Brasil

PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:09 am    Post subject:

Orwell wrote:
Still a source would be nice, I'd love to read about these awesome shields!

And what is wrong with the current Arquebus? I mean I get they had musketeers but is anything wrong with the actual unit?


You know the ratan natives? The ratan shields? This guy are ths shield master. 500 of them managed to kill a superior force armed with bows and firearms using sabers, their tough ass shields and NO ARMOR. ( is not like they just charged to them tough, they atracted the russians to a river where they had more mobility and firearms were harder to use). Th most impressive thing here ia that 500 men went to the battle and 500 turned back.NOT A SINGLE CASUALITY! Just search for sino/russian wars of the last 17 century on wikipedia and you will find this.

This forum is pretty intersting and can give you a resume but if tou want a true FRICKING BIG SOURCE it would be the book:"China marches west"

Also about the arquebus....ya see the problem with them is that they were just to vulnerable to cav (this os why we have pikeman Wink while chinese musketers not only had a better armor, but muskets were also much more eficient against cav.
But my biggest complain tough is that they are fricking skirmishers and china just didnt have this kind of troop.

Spoiler:

https://books.google.com.br/books?id=JtnfBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT210&lpg=PT210&dq=camel+cannons&source=bl&ots=7t1C4ePhR7&sig=CB3ZhE7rR_AVG62YcOXBdmHDsIk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aB2SVagChrGwBZ_BvLAO&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=camel%20cannons&f=false



also this.
_________________
A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zooasaurus
Italian Utili
Italian Utili


Joined: 16 Jan 2016
Posts: 161
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:39 am    Post subject:

What i'm trying to say is that qing doesn't need to have the best cannon since they objected them. But indeed they are experts in martial arts and conventional warfare
_________________
Gib SSR plz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Orwell
Sharpshooter
Sharpshooter


Joined: 15 May 2014
Posts: 1169
Location: United States of America

PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:45 am    Post subject:

Look the arquebus is the team's choice, I am fine with the current unit though no need to add work to a civ that is not really the scope of the mod

That whole 500 story still sounds anecdotal and you pointed out you're own massive flaw, we have the unit, the rattan shield, it is already in game!

About cannons...It has always seemed to me that China may have a lot of cannons but they are old fashioned and not that good, can we agree with that?
_________________
"Man is the only creature that consumes without producing."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> NE Forum All times are GMT
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group | Page design by Tilanus Commodor & michfrm.