American Military Suggestions

 
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Aquakinesis
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:10 pm    Post subject: American Military Suggestions

Hello everyone, this is my first post on the forum and I'd just like to say how delighted I am that a mod like this exists, so cheers to the NE Team. Greeting aside, I have visited this forum a good few times over the past two years, reading about new updates and suggestions and I decided it was about time I throw in my two cents.

I'm a big fan of the American Revolution, having spent countless hours reading articles and books, as well as watching videos on the subject. It gave me great joy to learn that the U.S was included in this mod and how well developed it was, however after dusting off the old copy of Age of Empires III and giving the it another shot, I'd like to suggest a few changes, just in terms of historical accuracy, and give the U.S an even more unique feel.

Now I know that with the next version of NE 2.2 the Americans will be reworked, and include the batch training system taken from Russia. Apart from this I haven't found an awful lot of information about any other changes, so some of the things I'll cover here might by helpful, or I may by just repeating what you are already thinking. In any case, keep up the good work.

Okay, so firstly, I'd like to address the topic of the militia. During the Independence War, roughly 1/3 of all American forces were state militias; citizens with little training who took up arms to fight against the British. Their morale was often low, ad in some cases they would run from the battlefield in the face of the disciplined, opposing army. Now apart from a few home city shipments, this fact seems to be overlooked greatly in NE, as the unit is not present apart from when an actual revolution is carried out, and this just doesn't feel right to me. I would suggest perhaps replacing the skirmisher in the barracks, as a cheap, weak unit that can't be upgraded/ upgraded very little, with a similar hit-and-run purpose to reflect this.

Regarding the Continental Marines, their use in NE and real life differ greatly. Currently, the marine is as a substitute for the musketeer, and is used in practically the same way; as the backbone of the U.S' military. During the revolution, marines were used as bodyguards/marksmen aboard American vessels to protect their own officers while attempting to kill the enemies'. Their first mission was a raid on the former pirate heaven Nassau, in an attempt to gather military supplies for the Continental Army. Thus, I believe marines should be confined to home shipments/ trained as port units with a good siege attack and a heavy infantry bonus, and their current purpose should by taken by Continental infantry. If they are kept at all.

Now about the artillery. Don't quote me on this, but if I remember correctly there was only one foundry in America capable of producing heavy artillery. Early cannons used by the Continental army were taken from Fort Ticonderoga, captured from British regiments or received from France. The U.S was pretty slow to start casting their own cannons when they did, so perhaps this could be reflected in the game-play, where artillery could be received from shipment cards rather than trained, trained after the Fortress Age, or only trained after receiving a shipment card. I know this would seriously hamper the American Civilization so unless the NE Team is striving for utmost historical accuracy, you should leave this out.

I don't have that much to say about cavalry. Again, during the war America had little, untrained cavalry, that only started receiving proper training when Fabriczy and Pulaski arrived in 1777, but the units currently present in NE fit the ones used at the time. My only real suggestion is to perhaps replace the 'Pulaski's Legion' card with the new Polish hussar when they are created, as Pulaski introduced lancers to the war, for which the legion was most famous.

Last suggestion is about the fortifications. Since at the time, America was a very new thing (and technically still is) there would obviously have been no Europeans around to build stone walls, and the only ones present in the Colonies would have been from very early English and Spanish settlements. The Americans built fortifications during battles and did not really have any uses for them later on, they would also not have enough time to build heavy, European-style walls, so perhaps the wall upgrade should be removed from the civilization. This could be countered however, by having the wooden walls be built faster and cost less resources, to reflect the revolutionary (get it?) engineering skills of Kosciuszko, who designed the American defenses at Saratoga, as well as those at the first American military academy at West Point, and was praised for his work by Generals of the time.

Well, thank you, to whoever reads this, for taking the time to read it. Again, these are only suggestions, I'm no game designer and this could all just be nonsense in terms of game-play. One way or another, I hope this modification, and the community, will flourish.

Have a nice day everyone!
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Firestorm
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 4:12 pm    Post subject:

Hello Aquakinesis!
If you love the American Revolution then NE 2.2 is the right mod for you. Actually we try to make all the civilizations as historical as possible. That sets us apart from some other mods.
In NE 2.2 the Continental Marine will be replaced by the State Militia and will have different stats from the current unit. The skirmisher will still be there and a hand infantry unit will be added too. As you know they will be trained on groups so don't expect them to be very strong.
As you mentioned the american army improved with the arrival of some European officers and their troops. This too shall be well represented on NE 2.2. Also some choices are made balance-wise. You mentioned walls, forts but it is not optimal to negate them to the Americans , although the idea of cheaper wooden walls doesn't look bad.
Also NE Americans also represent them on the War of 1812 or the Barbary Wars. Anyway thanks for your suggestions, as you see that we (the NE team, mainly Tilanus) and you thinks similar Wink We would be glad to hear more suggestions from you.
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 11:04 pm    Post subject: Re: American Military Suggestions

Aquakinesis wrote:
Now I know that with the next version of NE 2.2 the Americans will be reworked, and include the batch training system taken from Russia. Apart from this I haven't found an awful lot of information about any other changes, so some of the things I'll cover here might by helpful, or I may by just repeating what you are already thinking. In any case, keep up the good work.


Hey Aquakinesis, thanks for your post! Firestorm already gave you most of the answers I'd give you as well. So far we've mainly been fixing and polishing the NE civs of NE 2. These civs were made by a retired team generation and with NE 2.2 many civs will start to look different, including the Americans, because we'll redesign them. Indeed I was already aware of most of the points you made and Firestorm just said how I intend to fix the 'inadequacies'. Nonetheless I learnt a few new things here and there and I appreciate feedback a lot from people that can prove a certain level of contextual education through their writing. Wink

Quote:
Okay, so firstly, I'd like to address the topic of the militia. During the Independence War, roughly 1/3 of all American forces were state militias; citizens with little training who took up arms to fight against the British. Their morale was often low, ad in some cases they would run from the battlefield in the face of the disciplined, opposing army. Now apart from a few home city shipments, this fact seems to be overlooked greatly in NE, as the unit is not present apart from when an actual revolution is carried out, and this just doesn't feel right to me. I would suggest perhaps replacing the skirmisher in the barracks, as a cheap, weak unit that can't be upgraded/ upgraded very little, with a similar hit-and-run purpose to reflect this.

Actually, as far as I'm informed, the ratio was even larger. The amount of professionals was very low, especially in the beginning and later these were mostly frenchmen and other foreigners. The actual qualitative difference between more experienced militiamen and "professionals" is also surely debatable. If we take aside the name btw, then one could easily say that the NE Marines are de facto Militia Musketeers due to their downgraded stats. Firestorm mentioned that I changed the unit, its name, some of its visuals, but actually the new State Militia is technically more of a reinterpretation of the NE Marine.

Quote:
Regarding the Continental Marines, their use in NE and real life differ greatly. Currently, the marine is as a substitute for the musketeer, and is used in practically the same way; as the backbone of the U.S' military. During the revolution, marines were used as bodyguards/marksmen aboard American vessels to protect their own officers while attempting to kill the enemies'. Their first mission was a raid on the former pirate heaven Nassau, in an attempt to gather military supplies for the Continental Army. Thus, I believe marines should be confined to home shipments/ trained as port units with a good siege attack and a heavy infantry bonus, and their current purpose should by taken by Continental infantry. If they are kept at all.

While I did know that the Marines are a special corps and not regular cannon fodder, I didn't know they had marksman and bodyguard duties, so thanks for that info! I had considered them to act as US National Guard (the new "Conscripts" if you like), which - in the case of the Americans - would most likely only be accessible through the University (and maybe also through a shipment). I didn't consider Marines as Royal Guards for State Militias btw or actually just didn't like it, because I don't think a special forces and mass militia blend well with each other. Instead, if anything at all, I'd say the U.S. Legion would make a better RG upgrade for State Militias, even though I'd also still add a question mark to this idea and ask you: What do you think?

Quote:
Now about the artillery. Don't quote me on this, but if I remember correctly there was only one foundry in America capable of producing heavy artillery. Early cannons used by the Continental army were taken from Fort Ticonderoga, captured from British regiments or received from France. The U.S was pretty slow to start casting their own cannons when they did, so perhaps this could be reflected in the game-play, where artillery could be received from shipment cards rather than trained, trained after the Fortress Age, or only trained after receiving a shipment card. I know this would seriously hamper the American Civilization so unless the NE Team is striving for utmost historical accuracy, you should leave this out.

I don't have that much to say about cavalry. Again, during the war America had little, untrained cavalry, that only started receiving proper training when Fabriczy and Pulaski arrived in 1777, but the units currently present in NE fit the ones used at the time. My only real suggestion is to perhaps replace the 'Pulaski's Legion' card with the new Polish hussar when they are created, as Pulaski introduced lancers to the war, for which the legion was most famous.

It's correct that the US had very few artillery and cavalry. I have already redesigned the Pulaski's Legion card, but heavy Polish Winged Hussars for Americans would really be inappropriate. The card sends Veteran Uhlans now (and does something else), which will also be equipped with lances. If you saw the screenshot of the new American HC you might figure out a few things about how the new US cavalry. Most obvious detail is the introduction of a new unique cavalryman (and removal of another). Don't you have a guess? Mr. Green

As for artillery, the access to Gatling Guns* (name will be changed) will be changed and I do consider additional restrictions for US artillery. At the same time though I intend to ensure that the Americans have a comparably standard artillery gameplay. American artillery won't be as bad in NE as it might have been in reality.

Quote:
Last suggestion is about the fortifications. Since at the time, America was a very new thing (and technically still is) there would obviously have been no Europeans around to build stone walls, and the only ones present in the Colonies would have been from very early English and Spanish settlements. The Americans built fortifications during battles and did not really have any uses for them later on, they would also not have enough time to build heavy, European-style walls, so perhaps the wall upgrade should be removed from the civilization. This could be countered however, by having the wooden walls be built faster and cost less resources, to reflect the revolutionary (get it?) engineering skills of Kosciuszko, who designed the American defenses at Saratoga, as well as those at the first American military academy at West Point, and was praised for his work by Generals of the time.


Removing the Bastions upgrade is a good idea (it never was for Swedish and Austrians) and I like the focus on wooden fortifications a lot. If one would consider the (to be dropped) Lookout a wooden fortification one might even say the former team thoughts were going in a similar direction. ^^ Anyway, I'll consider your suggestions! - and combine them with my own ones. Mr. Green

I haven't planned something big for American fortifications, it's actually just one lil feature. But I'm quite certain it will surprise people and I do look forward to that! ^^ Just not sure if it'll be in NE 2.2, cause the Americans already caused me lots of extra shifts.

Quote:
Well, thank you, to whoever reads this, for taking the time to read it. Again, these are only suggestions, I'm no game designer and this could all just be nonsense in terms of game-play. One way or another, I hope this modification, and the community, will flourish.

Well, thanks for sharing your knowledge about American military history! I might be nerdy when it comes to history, but I also know very well it's impossible to treat and study every civ's background in same depth and detail. So your input is much appreciated!
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Aquakinesis
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:58 am    Post subject:

Hey guys, thanks for the replies, I'm glad we see things from a similar point of view. I don't quite know how the forums work yet so instead of quoting, I'll just address each point separately.

Firestorm, at the moment I don't have any more unit ideas, but I have a few thoughts flying around here and there about shipment cards that could upgrade military units, I'll have to cover them later due to time constraints.

Tilanus, these sort of changes to the Marine unit are the EXACT sort of ideas that I had in mind, and since you've already come up with this, I don't really have anything else to add.

About the new cavalry units, I'm not sure which units you're talking about, but I do know that instead of hussars, Americans used dragoons. Unless you're changing dragoons to hand cavalry and having them take the hussar's place (I don't see this happening), then I don't have a real guess. I'm also glad to hear the Uhlans will use lances. Even though I'm not a fan of cavalry, lancers are by far my favorite.

I second you choice about limiting American artillery, but not all out nerfing it, otherwise the U.S would become too confusing to use. Balancing accuracy and gameplay is fine by me.

Regarding the Militia RG upgrade, I don't think the U.S Legion would be an appropriate way to go. The Legion was created with the sole purpose of replacing the dysfunctional militia, which had been defeated numerous times by the natives during westward expansion campaigns. While the militias were part-time soldiers, the Legion was a full time army led by professional generals. I believe the Legion would fair better as a unique Church shipment card, the way the French receive Chasseurs(?). If you would keep it that is. If you were instead to have the renamed Marines act as regular Infantry, the Militia could be upgraded to the National Guard rather than having the Conscripts serve that task. The National Guard were after all army reserves, and it would be logical to upgrade militia to a back-up if the professional army fails.

I'll have to add more ideas later, I'm in a bit of a hurry now. Thank you again for the replies, I'm just glad to be of service.

Have a nice day!
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 11:42 am    Post subject:

Aquakinesis wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for the replies, I'm glad we see things from a similar point of view. I don't quite know how the forums work yet so instead of quoting, I'll just address each point separately.

Quoting works, it only might occur that the message doesn't get posted or only after a while.

Quote:
Tilanus, these sort of changes to the Marine unit are the EXACT sort of ideas that I had in mind, and since you've already come up with this, I don't really have anything else to add.

So you'd agree to make Marines US-specific "Conscripts"? I may add that Conscripts are - so far - still cannon fodder (but very good cannon fodder). This will change in NE 2.2 in which "Conscripts" will become "National Guards", that are much better as individual soldiers and will replace the Colonial Militias in revolutions. For one or two NE versions these will stay generic units and then later be replaced by unique National Guards. And I plan for the US "National Guards" (so not to be confused with the actual US National Guard) to be "Marines".

Quote:
Regarding the Militia RG upgrade, I don't think the U.S Legion would be an appropriate way to go. The Legion was created with the sole purpose of replacing the dysfunctional militia, which had been defeated numerous times by the natives during westward expansion campaigns. While the militias were part-time soldiers, the Legion was a full time army led by professional generals. I believe the Legion would fair better as a unique Church shipment card, the way the French receive Chasseurs(?). If you would keep it that is. If you were instead to have the renamed Marines act as regular Infantry, the Militia could be upgraded to the National Guard rather than having the Conscripts serve that task. The National Guard were after all army reserves, and it would be logical to upgrade militia to a back-up if the professional army fails.

Well, the United States Army was fundamentally different to the Continental Army in the core fact that the latter was mainly militia-based and the first one a professionally organized army. I don't intend to design a feature just for this though, because I see this already represented to the game's core mechanic of each unit upgrade improving a unit. In that context you could perfectly argue that a semi-professional militiaman would be promoted to the ranks of a regular professional regiment such as the U.S. Legion. And since, like you said, the U.S. Legion was meant to replace the State Militia it makes a lot of sense that the State Militia morphes into the U.S. Legion through a RG upgrade. That would be better than having both units around at the same time, no? Wink

I really want to show the development of the US armies that started with almost nothing, but managed to gradually professionalize over the ages. In American Age 5 I want the Americans to have a fully-fledged army, but in Age 1 they'll start somewhere in the dark. Wink

Quote:
About the new cavalry units, I'm not sure which units you're talking about, but I do know that instead of hussars, Americans used dragoons. Unless you're changing dragoons to hand cavalry and having them take the hussar's place (I don't see this happening), then I don't have a real guess. I'm also glad to hear the Uhlans will use lances. Even though I'm not a fan of cavalry, lancers are by far my favorite.

I posted this pic on facebook showing the new American HC (WIP):
Spoiler:


There you can see various known cavalry units such as Hussars, Uhlans, Dragoons and also a new unique cavalryman that replaces the Mounted Rifleman. Pulaski's Legion is the first Uhlan card on top with the Polish flag as background. I did reveal they send Veteran Uhlans but do something else apart from it. Then I was simply interested in your interpretation or guess Topmodel
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Aquakinesis
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 11:24 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Quoting works, it only might occur that the message doesn't get posted or only after a while.


I meant that I didn't quite know how to quote yet, but I think I got a hang of it. Anyway, thank you for the heads up. Wink

Quote:
So you'd agree to make Marines US-specific "Conscripts"? I may add that Conscripts are - so far - still cannon fodder (but very good cannon fodder). This will change in NE 2.2 in which "Conscripts" will become "National Guards", that are much better as individual soldiers and will replace the Colonial Militias in revolutions. For one or two NE versions these will stay generic units and then later be replaced by unique National Guards. And I plan for the US "National Guards" (so not to be confused with the actual US National Guard) to be "Marines".


Yes, in my opinion this is the way to go with the Marines (as long as you change their names). As you said, Conscripts are tougher cannon fodder, and so were these guys in the early days of the war (though far less obedient).

Quote:
Well, the United States Army was fundamentally different to the Continental Army in the core fact that the latter was mainly militia-based and the first one a professionally organized army. I don't intend to design a feature just for this though, because I see this already represented to the game's core mechanic of each unit upgrade improving a unit.


Okay, I understand this perfectly although upgrading militia to RG might be a problem. Historically, most militias only served for a about a year, then they disbanded, and were later called into service again. This went on-and-on for a while, and meant the militias never really had any time to gain enough combat experience to prove to be formidable foes to the British. Although, if you were to argue that each upgrade represents the militia in a different time period with different training methods and arsenal, e.g. unupgraded miitia - Early Revlution years, Veteran Militia - Late Revolution years/ Indian Wars and Guard Militia - War of 1812, I could very much see this happening.

Quote:
In that context you could perfectly argue that a semi-professional militiaman would be promoted to the ranks of a regular professional regiment such as the U.S. Legion. And since, like you said, the U.S. Legion was meant to replace the State Militia it makes a lot of sense that the State Militia morphes into the U.S. Legion through a RG upgrade. That would be better than having both units around at the same time, no? Wink


Gameplay wise, yes. Historically, no. Though some militiamen were conscripted into the professional army, this would have been far less compared to the Independence War. The probelm is the legion was only in use for four years during the Indina Wars, and later morphed into the U.S Army, which was during this time, very small. Militias were still used extensively alongside the army. During the War of 1812, abot 400,000 miltiamen were mobalised, while the largest number of professional soldiers used by the U.S at that time was 30,000. I still suggest the Militia be used as more of a weak musketeer available in the Colonial Age (pretty much the Marine in the current version), while the U.S army should provide the heavy-hitter units such as actual musketeers, cavalry and artillery, and be avalable a little later. Then again, like I pointed out before, being too historically accurate would utterly devistate the civilization in-game, so the choice comes down to you. I do see the problem of having a crappy militia musketeer in the imperial age fight alongside a fully upgraded and professionally trained infantry soldier, so I'm starting to see where you're comming from here.


Quote:
I really want to show the development of the US armies that started with almost nothing, but managed to gradually professionalize over the ages. In American Age 5 I want the Americans to have a fully-fledged army, but in Age 1 they'll start somewhere in the dark. Wink


This is really what I'm going for aswell, although I sense they way you want to do this is a little different from how I would. Either way, this is defnately how the U.S military should work, dont stray from this.

Quote:

I posted this pic on facebook showing the new American HC (WIP):
Spoiler: Show

There you can see various known cavalry units such as Hussars, Uhlans, Dragoons and also a new unique cavalryman that replaces the Mounted Rifleman. Pulaski's Legion is the first Uhlan card on top with the Polish flag as background. I did reveal they send Veteran Uhlans but do something else apart from it. Then I was simply interested in your interpretation or guess Topmodel


Oh, thank you for that, I was looking for this pictiure but couldn't find it, I checked Pinterest and ModDB but turns out it was on Facebook all along Razz . I must say, I really love the hat on the new mounted rifleman. I saw it a while ago in AC3 and I jut couldn't take my eyes off of it.

On a sidenote, I'v got two questions:
1) Are you going to keep St. Louis as the home city? Even though Washington D.C was the capital after the Revolution, at this time it was just the White House and a bunch of fields. If you're changing it, may I suggest Philaedelphia?

2) You mentioned a new American hand-to-hand infantry (I think) in your last post. May I inquire a bit further on its identity? Wink
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