[Abandoned] The Time of Reforms
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Pawelec_POLAND
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:50 am    Post subject: [Abandoned] The Time of Reforms

I've had an idea for a total conversion mod focusing on the Renaissance, trying to refresh the economy and make the game more historically accurate.


Don't get too excited: it's not gonna happen.


Timeline

Intended timeline starts by fall of Constantinople in 1453 and ends with the Council of Trent in 1563. I was asked few times why won't I extend it to 1570's, the reason is there are many changes on geopolitical map starting in 1568, what would require many civ changes to remain accurate (to name some: unions: Potugal-Spain, England-Scotland; the beginnings of the Dutch state, conquest of Siam by Burma, dissolution of the Great Khanate, conquest of Aztec and Inca, proclaiming the Russian Tsardom and an overall mess in Eastern Asia).

Playable nations

Vanilla-like civs:
English (the Kingdom of England) under Henry VIII,
Scots (the Kingdom of Scotland) under James IV,
French (the Kingdom of France) under Francis I,
Spaniards (united Kingdoms of Aragon and Castile) under Isabela I,
Portuguese (the Kingdom of Portugal) under Manuel I,
Poles (the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) under Casimir IV,
Muscovites (the Grand Duchy of Muscovy) under Ivan III,
Papalini (the Papal States) under Julius II,
Venetians (the Most Serene Republic of Venice) under Andrea Gritti,
Danes (the Kalmar Union) under Christian I, who can revolt to Swedes (Kingdom of Sweden) under Gustav I,
Magyars (the Kingdom of Hungary) under Matthias Corvinus,
Ottomans (the Ottoman Sultanate) under Selim I,
Timurids under Abū Saʿīd Mirza, who have to choose to reform to either Mughal Empire under Babur or Safavid Empire under Tahmasp I,
Vijayanagara (the Vijayanagara Empire) under Krishnadevaraya,
Siamese (the Ayutthaya Kingdom) under Borommatrailokkanat,
Chinese (the Ming Empire) under Hóngzhì,
Joseon (the Kingdom of Joseon) under Seongjong.

With TAD Wonder system:
Aztec (the Triple Alliance) under Moctezuma II,
Incas (the Inca Empire of Four Regions) under Huayna Capac.

With TWC native politician system:
Germans (the Holy Roman Empire) under Maximilian I,
Mongols (the Great Khanate of Great Yuan) under Dayan Khan,
Japanese (the Empire of Japan in Muromachi Period) under Hosokawa Katsumoto.

No civs from North America nor Africa were planned.

Natives

European native list sketch:
- Bohemia,
- Navarre,
- the Swiss (some Catholic/Protestant game decisions planned),
- Savoy (not sure, but likely),
- Lombardy (Milan),
- Tuscany (Florence),
- Campania (Naples),
- Liguria (Genoa; naval),
- Ragusa (naval),
- Moldavia,
- Crimea,
- Hanseatic League (naval),
- Teutonic Order.

Gameplay features

- XP and shipments are most likely completely gone (Aztec and Incas will most likely use reinvented XP system),
- new resource: Progress Points, used to buy HC cards and important techs,
- new resource: Metal, which is obtained almost exclusively from mines and HC, due to its rarity and importance mines will be reinvented as infinite sources with the usual deposits gone;
- reinvented Coin resource, which is obtained by means of taxation instead of being gathered by Settlers,
- civilian buildings built in a certain proximity of Town Centers,
- civ-specific Factory replacements,
- defences can be built on the coast (so you can wall off your harbour to prevent early raids),
- sea routes and naval natives,
- strategic resources like sulphur, exploited via the socket mechanism,
- much more realistic landscapes with new plants (much more focus on bushes and smaller plants, trees based on actual tree species) and terrains,
- reworked UI.

Special thanks go to (in no particular order):
Orwell for helping with the research for a mod which never came into existance,
Zooasaurus for suggesting a new name for Trade Posts,
Hoop Thrower for suggesting a new age-up system.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 11:54 am    Post subject:

I love the idea( and have presented something similar before)! I would love to present some ideas to you and am curious what you are looking for most, maps civs techs what? Seriously I've been thinking that AOE needs this sort of mod! So yeah I'd love to work with you and would love to hear more.

Also if this helps I wrote a little idea post on the Wotta forums for a similar idea and if you wanna look at it and take something from there feel free to!

http://wotta.com.br/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3972&p=96102#p96102
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Pawelec_POLAND
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 12:21 pm    Post subject:

First of all here's an interactive world map I love: GeaCron. Decisions regarding civ choice were made based on it.

I really need to find a way of introducing Indian civ (or civs), but I have no idea how. My knowledge of 15th and 16th century India is sehr schlecht to say the least so I need help here.

As for the features many are planned:
- building and ship HP much increased, artillery attack and cost much increased;
- as artillery is much more costly some more old-fashioned siege methods are back;
- reworked spy, who can use stealth and bribe enemy units to join your side;
- new unit: engineer, who increases artillery fire rate and performs special tasks at the battlefield;
- city-planning mechanics: TC reimplemented with completely new role, Houses must be built in close proximity of the TC; fields (possibly of varying, map-dependent types) separated from Mills and built in their close proximity,
- new resource: Prestige - most Capital (a.k.a. HC) cards cost Prestige; for Asian civs replaces Export;
- sub-civs for federal nations: gain support of prominent vassals as the Holy Roman Emperor and increase imperial influence over major houses of Japan;
- political decisions with age ups (somewhat like in AoK's mod, Chivalry): choose Szlachta's new privileges as Poles, balance goods exchange as Venetians and distribute the seats of Roman Curia between the cardinals;
- revolutions replaced with Breakthroughs: quit Kalmar Union as Sweden, convert to Lutheranism as Teutonic Grand Master or submit the Church of England to Pope again;
- new trade route types: trains replaced for obvious reasons; caravans and naval routes planned,
- more powerful natives, who live next to trade routes: gain the support of Hussites, Milanese, Savoyards, Swiss and many more;
- new terrains, plants and tons of new graphics!
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Tilanus Commodor
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:19 pm    Post subject:

Oh oh, Pawelec. Have you really thought through all of this? Do you already know how things will be done technically? Because I doubt it a bit ^^

Your project is very ambitious, it requires a whole bandwidth of modding skills, experience and a lot of time and determination. I wouldn't doubt for a moment you'd lack the latter, but the other ones? Even if you start with a fresh, unmodded AoE3, it's still nothing you should underestimate. The devil is in the details and you'll see him very often, once (and from what I can tell) only when you have to do them. Not before.

On a second note, I see multiple similarities to future NE and the ideas you presented in your second post. Lemme just go through that list:

Pawelec_POLAND wrote:

As for the features many are planned:
- building and ship HP much increased, artillery attack and cost much increased

Could imagine that for buildings, but ships are alright (except for their lack of appeal and reliability)
Quote:
- as artillery is much more costly some more old-fashioned siege methods are back;

Artillery costs are fine actually, but restrictions are not. With a pendulum like system consisting of build limits and other variables should be sufficient for it. Also, I don't see why old-fashioned artillery should be more expensive in particular. Old artillery was clumsy, technically primitive and inaccurate as hell. Where is your proven sense for important details? Devil

Quote:
reworked spy, who can use stealth and bribe enemy units to join your side;

Reworked spy comes next version. How shall the bribing work? It's a modding no-no and hence easier said than done. Wink

Quote:
- new unit: engineer, who increases artillery fire rate and performs special tasks at the battlefield;

Planned for the sapper. Except for the ROF thing, which seems imba to me.

Quote:
- city-planning mechanics: TC reimplemented with completely new role, Houses must be built in close proximity of the TC; fields (possibly of varying, map-dependent types) separated from Mills and built in their close proximity,

The more often I read this idea the less natural I consider the idea of a centralized base with a ring-like system around. True, if you only look at a single grown town or a metropole, then the structure of a sliced onion will apply, but for a whole territory with space between towns in which populace was scattered, then I find AoE3 is actually not too far away from redrawing the general picture of a map that doesn't show only one town.

I also find these building rules forced and thus limiting for gameplay.
Quote:
- new resource: Prestige - most Capital (a.k.a. HC) cards cost Prestige; for Asian civs replaces Export;

Hm, another abstract resource next to XP? Isn't the prestige resource from EUIV? Devil

The only thing I ever considered Prestige for was a nicer way to display your "HC level".

Quote:
- sub-civs for federal nations: gain support of prominent vassals as the Holy Roman Emperor

A sub-civ like what? A series of politicians, HC cards or techs? That's already happening in NE.

Quote:
and increase imperial influence over major houses of Japan;

We have someone in the NE team who's obsessed with Japan. So be sure it'll get a decent overhaul. The Imperial influence is what exactly? The Export resource?

Quote:
- political decisions with age ups (somewhat like in AoK's mod, Chivalry): choose Szlachta's new privileges as Poles, balance goods exchange as Venetians and distribute the seats of Roman Curia between the cardinals;

This seems more of a visual thing (which is fine and already practised in NE), even though I remember you wanted more complex politicians. I think the impacts of politicians in AoE3 and NE already are as politicial as they can get. More complexity doesn't make it more 'political', but just more .. complex and confusing.

Quote:
- revolutions replaced with Breakthroughs: quit Kalmar Union as Sweden, convert to Lutheranism as Teutonic Grand Master or submit the Church of England to Pope again;

EUIV.
Quote:
- new trade route types: trains replaced for obvious reasons; caravans and naval routes planned

coming.
Quote:
more powerful natives

coming.
Quote:
who live next to trade routes

.. why? To have even shorter matches? If someone owns one, he most likely owns it all..

Quote:
new terrains, plants and tons of new graphics!

And you'll do all these by yourself? I didn't know you're a graphic crack.. Mr. Green

Final question: Why don't you just all play Anno? Devil

(..or Europa Universalis. Because honestly, what you want is way closer to these games than Age of Empires. )
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Pawelec_POLAND
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:08 pm    Post subject:

Oh, how I love such posts, Tilanus. Mr. Green

I know it's ambitious, but quite a lot of coding is already done and there's no deadline. You know best what that means. I had to stop because of my exams, so I decided to stop the coding and do the research to make the final decision about Middle East and Southern Asia - I'd like to know all the civs I'm including as soon as possible, SO PLEASE HELP ME DECIDE.

The fact I don't write about modding stuff doesn't mean I don't experiment on my own. I had to reinstall AoE3 so many times because of messing up the tech trees beyond repair... lol

In fact many base parts of the code are ready, so I have the tema, the next step are variazioni. The awful thing is the balance of course, but this is a quest for my Excel and calculus skills to be done after my exam session. Also, given how many things are planned this is the last thing to do - research and stabilisation of the base code come first.

Graphics? Oh, I enjoy making them A LOT! So it's a plus for me that they are needed to be made. lol I've made some new cliffs yesterday and I'm planning to make walls as cliffs to represent the quay walls in the scenarios, but that's almost no work, just a few planes and UV map.

And I planed to make some buildings for my AoK graphics mod anyway.

And given how limited we are with the animations, there aren't that many options to tinker with. I wonder how well would animations from Ubisoft games work there, though... (I played Anno for so long that I got bored with it, but I'm not gonna pretend the limited proximity thing isn't based on it evil).

I'm tinkering with new HC arrangement ideas, some workarounds are... interesting to say the least. Modelling buildings can be quite fast if you are well-equipped with modular buildsets and alternate textures.

The new resource is actually based on AoM's Favor. I couldn't find a word suiting it better, I haven't noticed it's same aas EUIV's resource. The exact implementation will depend on what I'll be able to do, because I'd like it to replace XP entirely, but that means a huge (or not so huge, depending on how motivated I am) change. I have my quiet plans to introduce Metal as a resource, but it depends on how I manage to solve the XP/Prestige problem - if I'm forced to keep both then Metal won't get to the mod.

About the spy my answer is: the War Chiefs are gone in the mod. Truth be told, I've never liked TWC nations. I've noticed your attempts to create convert action in NE2 code while I was tinkering with my special Outpost techs for Poles, which turned out to be boring. And enabling conversion while modifying the War Chief ability isn't a no-no (I did that homework long ago Wink ).

The old-fashioned siege engines may be problematic because of the animations. I'll try my best. A friend of mine is writing a program for a different game's Granny files and it seems to do interesting things with AoE3 ones. If the catapult, ram, scorpion or trebuchet (long live AoE2 King) get to the game they wouldn't be as nice as the artillery, but they would be available earlier.

We both know something has to be done with the warships, but what exactly neither of us knows. This is still to be decided.

The sub-civs are meant to remain a surprise till the very end, I'm sorry but no details to be shared here. Most of the HRE sub-civ code is already written and tested, it required some workarounds and I think it's the most tricky code I've wrote so far. I can tell you it works the I-pretend-to-be-something-different way.

What puzzles me the most are the trade routes. I know people can mod them successfully, but I have troubles getting exactly what I want. I have achieved most of my goals, but I'm a perfectionist and I'm not yet satisfied.

The real problem is I have zero experience with RMS scripting and that's why there are no RMS's listed above - they would have to wait until I learn myself to RM-script or find someone eager to help me. The groupings don't like water, what makes me really sad as I'd love to add oases to my desert natives' villages. Wells and ponds implemented as units will have to do the trick.

And I never wrote these are new features, they are only planned. I hope someone will answer some of my questions when I hit a wall. Sadly, the KnB team seems not to respond and I cannot find any version newer than 1.0.0. They implemented a lot of things I'd like to try, it would be useful to look at their code to learn the tricky things.

Tilanus, if people switched to another game every time they would miss some of its features in a different game no mod would ever exist. Anno easily gets repetitive, EU IV is absolutely different from AoE series and I want to get some of the city building features and historical accuracy in AoE. BTW the things you wrote are inspired by Anno are more often inspired by Rise of Nations, which in terms of mechanics and balance is one of the most interesting RTS's I've ever played.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 8:32 pm    Post subject:

Well personally I am interested! Does this mod have or want a team? Also if you are interested in India I can always pull back up my old stuff on the Mughal Empire....

Anyhow I do agree with Tilanus that this all seems quite ambitious, BUT you seem to have drive and I'd be happy to help with research, may I know what precisely you want for India?
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theyseemeroland
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 9:11 pm    Post subject:

At least thematically, I like the idea. The time period is great because it's short enough to be internally consistent, but so much changes in your brief timeline, on the European side of things for sure, that the Age Up system still makes sense.
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:23 pm    Post subject:

I would be happy to accept any form of help. What I need first and foremost is proper research on the situation in India, beginning between 1453 and 1465. I have exams coming and this is the last major civ decision I need to make to enter civ balancing phase - as of now they are only roughly sketched. If it would be accurate an Arabic civ is considered as well, but this would need a proper research as well.

As of now it's a bit too early to seek for help, but someone knowing the secrets of RMS scripting (or eager to learn them) would definitely be helpful later on.

Of course graphic designers are always welcome, as the task is very time-consuming. Especially the siege engines would need a lot of thinking both graphic- and code-wise, so if anyone could help with them I think I could start that now. An easier thing would be to find enough evidence these fell out of use before 1453 but I'm not a historian and military history is not the part of history I prefer., political and economic are more interesting for me. But commanding these units is so much fun I cannot resist. lol

So Orwell, if you'd like to help then I need someone to do the research, especially on Asian civs on:
- situation in India between 1453 and 1563,
- general situation in the Middle East and Arabia between 1453 and 1563,

- the situation of the Kalmar Union starting from 1453 (if that would be more accurate the Swedes and Dano-Norwegians may be split up),
- situation in China, Korea and Mongolian Khanates between 1453 and 1563,
- navy and artillery used in the period,
- relationships between the allied tribes of the Aztec Empire,
- and of course everything about the military of the period is welcome.

When I think a bit longer about the Kalmar Union I think I have to see to what extent we can turn the Revolution into normal gameplay (the music would get annoying lol). Forcing the player to Revolt and choose a country when advancing to Age 3 would be interesting (combining a revolution with an age up is tested and doable), but the last time I tried to do so the HC deck was the main problem.

As such the Revolutions we know now won't be present in the mod, mostly because that would be inaccurate, but also because they need special treatment in terms of balance and that's the most boring part of modding (that was a bit harsh, I know).

I think the Renaissance is my favourite time period, historically it was extremely intense - Byzantine Empire ceases to exist and Ottomans say 'Hello, infidels!', getting dangerously close to the Hungarian border and threatening Venetian supremacy over the eastern part of Mediterranean Sea; the Habsburgs get comfortable at their new throne; the Kalmar Union starts to boil in its own pot when Spain does the contrary and unites, starting its competition with Portugal for real; France and Scotland are in conflict with England, who in the end says 'Goodbye!' to papacy, which experiences a crisis and has to face Reformation; Aztecs and Incas expand their empires until Europeans discover the New World; the Poles struggle to finally get rid of the Teutonic Order; Muscovy gets out of the Mongol claws due to the problems of divided Khanates; the divide of Japan progresses and Chinese experience various problems at their own borders, what encourages them to complete the Great Wall.

That's more than enough for a single mod. I think the narrow timespan (it's only 110 years) is an advantage, the game can be accurate. On the other hand 110 divided by 5 is 22 - that's how much time passes between age ups. One should balance the techs and units carefully to remain accurate.

So if you want to help, the first thing needed is to do the RESEARCH. If you'd like to help PM me, I don't have much time now but I should be able to make a detailed list in a week or two.

theyseemeroland: the list above is a list of PLANNED features. Plans do change, and they do so extremely often when you're a student. What I can tell you is that I won't get as economically-frenzied as it may sound, it's a war game and I won't forget that.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:38 pm    Post subject:

Should I PM you or just post here?
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Pawelec_POLAND
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:48 pm    Post subject:

I think PMs will do, posting would make sense if there were many people involved.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:06 am    Post subject:

OK, so for the Middle East things are clarifying, I'll make the final decision depending on how well the revolutionary age-up mechanic works.

Orwell PM'd me about his suggestions for India, or rather omitting the Indian civ. That's a bit sad to me, because that would be a huge gap in otherwise continuous map of Eurasian civs. Mughals are outside the timeframe, no chance to include them, so at the moment Vijayanagara Empire is my favourite, with other Indian states being natives.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:02 pm    Post subject:

It should be Northern Yuan(Oirat control Khanate)
Esen is Ai personality.

Ming personality will be Emperor Zhu Di.
I will post suggestions later. About the Asians.
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Alain Magnan
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:04 pm    Post subject:

Will this be for Mac as well as windows?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:55 pm    Post subject:

I could write down the military of The Ottomans and Islamic Countries like the Mamluks if you want
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Alain Magnan
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:42 pm    Post subject:

Happy to help in any way, btw.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:12 pm    Post subject:

What an enthusiasm! I didn't expect that. Feel free to post any suggestions, all of them are welcome.

I'd be happy to make it available for Mac as well, but I don't have access to any Mac machine (they are quite unpopular in Poland), so Windows only I'm afraid Sad

Today I was asked how will the ages be named and my quick response (there's room for changes) would be:
I. Feudal Age (starts about 1453)
II. Gunpowder Age (about 1480)
III. Exploration Age (about 1508)
IV. Reform Age (about 1535)
V. Golden Age (about 1563)

Some of you may not like it, but the revolutions in their current form (no economy) will be gone. Also advancing to age V won't have the fancy-detail-to-complete-my-civ feeling, it will work as any other age up with substantial additions to the tech tree. After all, it's the Time of Reforms.

In the week to come I have to do some dirty work, nothing spectacular but many important technical things, so I may need more time to reply to your posts. Right now I'm fighting with additional trade route types.
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