Mughal Maratha UNITS short intro and some facts
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The last Austriahungarian
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:16 pm    Post subject:

Wake up maggots, sleep time is over! lol

So i hope you passed your exams warpoint, and that you retrieved your beautiful painting might is rightly but now i got inspired by the german reichstag and we need to think in a actual organized (an not only speculative) way to our beloved Durbar (original name) that should be for both marathas and MUGHAULS work uniquely (thanks for the tip cavalry user Mr. Green).

First of i have really tough about our beloved musketeers, especially gardir: Thanks to warpoint helpful books I got in doubt if the Gardi were disbanded after Ibrahim Khan Gardi and WHEN they were created as a army, shivaji period? I also tough that these general ( Ibrahim Khan Gardi) should receive more atention by our part since he was one of the first great maratha modernizer in European style 18 inf in deccan warfare (also because his gardi were legendary). A card like Ibrahim Khan Gardi tactics that highly increase their stats would be cool.

I was also thinking on moving bargir to age 2 (with adjusted stats) since they started in Shivaji period. I know that they became line infantry in the 18 century? the thing tough is that i need to know the main diference between 17 century guerrilla/hit and run bargir an 18 century line infantry one. Especially weapons and equipment.

Edit: is the 17 century bargir the cav one?....


Also I think I found our formula guide for Maratha and Mughaul in summary.

Maratha:
pros:
+Cavalry( especialy raiding one).
+eco is solid.
+Defenses.
+Decent navy (raiding one).
+good late artillery.
+Good access to natives?

cons:
-horrible early artillery
-Infantry is missing in the modern department(some aspects, and much better than mughauls and qing).
-Not really strong militar age 1 and 2.

Mughaul:
Pros:
+Incredible eco (to dont say the best early eco).
+Great early artillery.
+Good access to natives? (akbar anyone Razz?)
+Good consulate.

Cons:
-Missing many units in the modern late game infantry department, and in consequence dependent on mercenaries, consulate and natives.
-eco late game loses bright.

Also about Pindari: Were they a ``dragon`` type unit using the musket as their main weapon? Or it was the sword? I ask these because for example cuiraissers used to carry pistols but that doesn't mean they mainly fought at distance or that we will represent them with both weapons.
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THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
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warpoint
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:57 am    Post subject:

Quote:
[quote="The last Austriahungarian"]Wake up maggots, sleep time is over! lol

So i hope you passed your exams warpoint


Mr. Green how you know i passed my exams Mr. Green
i reply soon about {topic related } apporox 1day
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Might is right
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:57 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
[quote="The last Austriahungarian"]Wake up maggots, sleep time is over! lol

sorry sir
you did a mistake i am belong to pure Blood Topmodel

Quote:
First of i have really tough about our beloved musketeers, especially gardir: Thanks to warpoint helpful books I got in doubt if the Gardi were disbanded after Ibrahim Khan Gardi and WHEN they were created as a army, shivaji period?

yes shivaji had gardis
and they are experts in horseriding, archery, as pikemen, and as musketeers
no doubt they exists
useful link
http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/6336480 Mr. Green and that is myth that all gardi was muslims .

Quote:
I also tough that these general ( Ibrahim Khan Gardi) should receive more atention by our part since he was one of the first great maratha modernizer in European style 18 inf in deccan warfare (also because his gardi were legendary). A card like Ibrahim Khan Gardi tactics that highly increase their stats would be cool.
for card Smile

Quote:
I was also thinking on moving bargir to age 2 (with adjusted stats) since they started in Shivaji period. I know that they became line infantry in the 18 century? the thing tough is that i need to know the main diference between 17 century guerrilla/hit and run bargir an 18 century line infantry one. Especially weapons and equipment.

Edit: is the 17 century bargir the cav one?....

bargir served as a cav and musket both you alredy knows
bargir is just a status for troops who get direct payment weapons .. training ..by kingdom
{1} 18th century bargir infantry = western musketeers .
{2} shivaji bargir ->was foot solider and cav both {they had big number of bargir cav but thats not mean that bargir was only cav troops they surved as a infantry also } question Arrow what they used ?Arrow they used almost all kind weapons like swords, shields, matchlocks and spears...etc but they did not used western type of weapons like bayonets .
{3}cav or infantry ?
answer Arrow both
Quote:
Also I think I found our formula guide for Maratha and Mughaul in summary.

Maratha:
pros:
+Cavalry( especialy raiding one).
+eco is solid.
+Defenses.
+Decent navy (raiding one).
+good late artillery.
+Good access to natives?

cons:
-horrible early artillery
-Infantry is missing in the modern department(some aspects, and much better than mughauls and qing).
-Not really strong militar age 1 and 2.

Mughaul:
Pros:
+Incredible eco (to dont say the best early eco).
+Great early artillery.
+Good access to natives? (akbar anyone Razz?)
+Good consulate.

Cons:
-Missing many units in the modern late game infantry department, and in consequence dependent on mercenaries, consulate and natives.
-eco late game loses bright.

looking good and balanced

Quote:
Also about Pindari: Were they a ``dragon`` type unit using the musket as their main weapon? Or it was the sword? I ask these because for example cuiraissers used to carry pistols but that doesn't mean they mainly fought at distance or that we will represent them with both weapons.

no they use both range and melee interesting fact is they carry all goods {ration blanket ...} so they are ideal for long battles and raids
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YOUR NEIGHBOUR COUNTRY ALWAYS YOUR .

ENEMY

AND
YOUR NEIGHBOUR'S NEIGHBOUR COUNTRY ALWAYS YOUR FRIEND .

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The last Austriahungarian
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:42 pm    Post subject:

Sorry for calling you maggots xD i didnt even know what it means i just used because it was in the lord of the rings lol

Also warpoint: i am a iluminatti that is why.

Sorry with the bargir thing i am not really good with this class thing. Anyway i have changed my idea about the gardi and bargir (inf). They should now be age2 and I think they could start as a light musketeers or arquebusiers and then with the 3 age upgrade they become bayonet musks.

So instead of arquebusier we have the Bargir ( using the sword and the musk plus the chainmail) that in age 3 evolves to a anto inf/cav bayonet while the gardir start as a fast pretty good at raiding ( they were know by that in this period) that in age 3 gets its precious bayonet.( or we can just stick with the card/tech thing. Which one you prefer?)

I know they used many weapons but this is a gunpowder era game and especialy gardir were famous for wielding musks...also there are already swordsman archer and pike so we can just nme then gardi pike and bargir sabre Razz ( or create new units replacing the standard ones...).

Also Pindaris are 18 century arent they? So to avoid making marathas to strong and for historical reasons they should be age3. Ps: this unit is a pain to make thanks for the huge armament they had but i think a hussar style would work best.
_________________
A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
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Isa_S
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:55 pm    Post subject:

HI Smile

Some things don't seem balanced at all for example:

You pointed out the cons about the Mughaul:

-"Missing many units in the modern late game infantry department, and in consequence dependent on mercenaries, consulate and natives";

Well, they are dependent on mercenaries, consulate and natives late game, but according to you they will have good access to natives and they will get a good consulate so i can't see the con...

-"Eco late game loses bright";

They got the best and incredible early eco so lets imagine it becomes "just" good later on then can we consider that as a con? Of course if the enemy survives the combo incredible (best one) early eco (allowing mass units and age up faster) + great early artillery.

Sorry if i misunderstood something.
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warpoint
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:41 am    Post subject:

Isa_S wrote:
Quote:
HI Smile
Arrow welcome if you have any suggestion please share it


Some things don't seem balanced at all for example:

You pointed out the cons about the Mughaul:

-"Missing many units in the modern late game infantry department, and in consequence dependent on mercenaries, consulate and natives";

Well, they are dependent on mercenaries, consulate and natives late game, but according to you they will have good access to natives and they will get a good consulate so i can't see the con...

-"Eco late game loses bright";

They got the best and incredible early eco so lets imagine it becomes "just" good later on then can we consider that as a con? Of course if the enemy survives the combo incredible (best one) early eco (allowing mass units and age up faster) + great early artillery.

Sorry if i misunderstood something.


valid question {i am also agreed } concern to game {but history showing different picture btw this is game not history class}. so we need to think Confused alternatives for balance .
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warpoint
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:49 am    Post subject:

Quote:
[quote="The last Austriahungarian"]Sorry for calling you maggots xD i didnt even know what it means i just used because it was in the lord of the rings lol

may be might confused {muggle}

Quote:
Also warpoint: i am a iluminatti that is why.

surly you are not iluminatti lol
Quote:
Sorry with the bargir thing i am not really good with this class thing. Anyway i have changed my idea about the gardi and bargir (inf). They should now be age2 and I think they could start as a light musketeers or arquebusiers and then with the 3 age upgrade they become bayonet musks.

So instead of arquebusier we have the Bargir ( using the sword and the musk plus the chainmail) that in age 3 evolves to a anto inf/cav bayonet while the gardir start as a fast pretty good at raiding ( they were know by that in this period) that in age 3 gets its precious bayonet.( or we can just stick with the card/tech thing. Which one you prefer?)


Arrow i think card suit because bayonet introduced by Europeans mainly.

Quote:
I know they used many weapons but this is a gunpowder era game and especialy gardir were famous for wielding musks...also there are already swordsman archer and pike so we can just nme then gardi pike and bargir sabre Razz ( or create new units replacing the standard ones...)

Arrow sabre as name not suit because it was mainly european term for kind of curved sword . Talwar was the kind of curved sword used by the South Asian factions {maratha also}.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talwar

Quote:
Also Pindaris are 18 century arent they? So to avoid making marathas to strong and for historical reasons they should be age3. Ps: this unit is a pain to make thanks for the huge armament they had but i think a hussar style would work best.

after more searching Arrow pindari was served since 17th century
if consider as a husser unit then we need to add another range cav
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The last Austriahungarian
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:24 pm    Post subject:

@Isa_S

Hello and thanks for joining in Mr. Green

Well the thing with natives, did you realized i aded a "?" As far as Akbar and his sucsessor wetr pretty open in relation to other people and religious this is reversed with the later extremists emperors so i dont know if this can really be kept. Maybe eraly and later no? It s also possible that the good thing with natives is not necesarly good relation but a multietnic empire like austra...

And even with good consulate and natives that wont save you from a tech tree that is missing even basic muskeeters. Also needing to get trading posts to make the usefull of your army sucks.

And about eco....yeah maybe it doesnt need to get worse.

@warpoint

O sorry for pindari BACK TO AGE 2.

Is it okay with the bargir and gardi age 2 musk? Also I got the bayonet in card( or dabar Wink. I also need some visual reference for them since i cant found any :V

And about ranged cav: we have the musket cav however we can see for a cav archer too ( it may suit better).
_________________
A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
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The last Austriahungarian
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:28 pm    Post subject:

The gardi and bargir are really intriguing me. "Feeding "musks was quite expensive for gardi in the 17 century so i dont know if they could really be musks age 2...
_________________
A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
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warpoint
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:55 am    Post subject:

The last Austriahungarian wrote:
The gardi and bargir are really intriguing me. "Feeding "musks was quite expensive for gardi in the 17 century so i dont know if they could really be musks age 2...

well gardi served other kingdoms also as shooters and... before maratha rises .


sorry for late response my traning session going on


Mr. Green
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The last Austriahungarian
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:23 pm    Post subject:

Hey guys, couldn't the barcha spearmen become a sargent? (for the ones that one that don't know what it is is a high hp+damage+speed spearmen with high ranged RESISTANCE to work as both a halberdier style meatshield and for close combat charges). The Barcha could be a royal (or uu Mr. Green).

Also i am wondering, what we will do with 16 century faction? Which were the marathi people kingdoms that came BEFORE the marathas, that made the bases ad that could be explored in age 1 and possibly 2?
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A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:44 am    Post subject:

I'd appreciate it a lot if someone would summarize all the things and ideas said in here in the first post. I don't really have the time to re-read 8 pages everytime. ^^
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Might is right
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:33 pm    Post subject:

hmmm i will try to summarize Mr. Green
_________________
YOUR NEIGHBOUR COUNTRY ALWAYS YOUR .

ENEMY

AND
YOUR NEIGHBOUR'S NEIGHBOUR COUNTRY ALWAYS YOUR FRIEND .

A NEUTRAL COUNTRY BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR NEIGHBOUR ALWAYS POWERFUL THAN YOU AND YOUR NEIGHBOUR

,,,,,,,,,CHANAKYA MANDAL THEORY ,,,,,,,
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The last Austriahungarian
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:50 pm    Post subject:

Might is right wrote:
hmmm i will try to summarize Mr. Green


Hum but are truly finished? Anyway do your best SACRIFICE YOUR FREE TIME, YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR SOCIAL LIFE BUT DO IT FOR PANIPAT! Topmodel lol lol
_________________
A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
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The last Austriahungarian
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:39 pm    Post subject:

Correct me if I am wrong but didnt many. Military comanders/leaders in marathas and other india states mounted on elephants to see better the battlefield and so his troops could see him better (panipat for example). Because it would be pretty awesome if you could choose between a cavalry mounted comander and a elephant one.
_________________
A KING MUST BE GREEDIER!
A KING MUST LAUGH LOUDER!
A KING MUST BE MORE FURIOUS THAN EVERYONE ELSE!
HE MUST EXEMPLIFY THE EXTREME OF ALL THINGS, GOOD AND EVIL!
THAT IS WHY HIS RETAINERS ENVY AND ADORE HIM, AND WHY THE FLAMES OF ASPIRATION, TO BE AS THE KING IS, CAN BURN WITHIN
HIS PEOPLE!

I SHALL GRIEVE AND I SHALL WEEP, BUT I SHALL NEVER REGRET!
-Iskandar, king of conquerors.
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