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SAOL
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:18 am    Post subject:

Wojtek wrote:
Why would anyone call normal and natural behavioral patterns like treating boys and girls in a different way offensive?
Because some people feel that treating boys and girls too much differently is a social construct which is an obstacle to the development of the individual, and something with reinforces gender roles which may lead to discrimination and pressure which makes for a less enjoyable life compared to being allowed to be who you really are.

Quote:
Boys are boys and girls are girls and they should be treated according to their sex in order to teach boys to be boys and girls to be girls.
Yes, boys are boys and girls are girls, but why should they be treated so differently? I know there was an outcry in several other European countries when the Christmas toy catalogue in Sweden (and I think Denmark) featured boys and girls playing with guns as well as girls and boys playing with ironing boards and vacuum cleaners.

Quote:
As far as the book for children is concerned, why would anyone create "unspecified gender" in a book like that?
Isn't it obvious? So that both boys and girls could identify with the character. I suspect the result is that they don't really identify with it at all, however. Which is why it's kind of silly.

Quote:
In Polish all nouns have a grammatical gender assigned, even the non-living world.
Well, in Swedish we don't conjugate depending on which pronoun is used. We do have two have two grammatical genders as far as nouns go, however.

On the other hand, it's silly to say that grammatical gender assigned to inanimate nouns, say "couch", have much anything to do with penises and vaginas - biological gender. You could just as well call the groups A and B. Male and female in the context is just a construct.

Quote:
Feminists and other insane psycho freaks try to change the languages by enforcing weird words or phrases which make the languages look weird and unnatural.
What's the difference really from trying to hold back the language from evolving?

Quote:
To make things funnier, in Polish 'mankind' is translated into 'ludzkość', which is feminine. Is there anything offensive about that like excluding males from this expression? Umm...no
I agree that there's not (in some contexts "man" does not mean Homo sapiens with testes but just Homo sapiens), but there are people who do take offence. It's kind of petty, but real nonetheless.

Quote:
They should start worrying about more important matters like women earning less than men, which is still a problem in, for example, Poland.
Most of them do. The argument goes that there are many things upholding the status quo and balance of power, and that language is one of those things. When you think about it the thought isn't completely silly - there is a lot of power in the language. In order to achieve better equality in terms of pay you must change a societal attitude, and to that language may be key.
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Wojtek
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:22 pm    Post subject:

SAOL, boys are born boys and girls are born girls and there should be no reason to pretend there are no differences in sexes. Individualism is for some important but don't try to argue that boys dressing up as girls and playing with dolls is something normal or something parents should accept. This is not normal and it's enough for a child to visit a psychologist because this is definitely a kind of disorder which should be fixed like when someone pretends to be of opposite sex. How is a boy who dresses up as a girl and plays with dolls supposed to be ready to the future role of a husband and father? Rolling Eyes The division between sexes is as natural as a shining sun and people should not try to cheat the nature because the effects are catastrophic later on. I uploaded a video about gender equality paradox in Norway some time ago. There are several really strong arguments against the theories pushed forward by feminists and other silly people.

As far as books or films are concerned, I always identify with a male character if at all. I don't think this is wrong. Taking away the opportunity to identify with the character makes reading less enjoyable or sometimes simply worthless.

In some languages grammatical gender is assigned to inanimate nouns and there is nothing wrong with it. The ending of a noun determines the grammatical gender. It obviously has nothing to do with natural gender because 'kamień' (a stone) is grammatically masculine but in the real world there is nothing which makes it masculine. I'd say this division is purely for grammatical purposes. I don't imagine having merely one for example possessive pronoun for all genders in my language. It would sound awkward.

Language evolves when all or vast majority of people start changing it not when a group of selfish feminists and other freaks who think they're important or better than others. In fact most people make fun of them and don't treat their behaviour seriously like walking topless in the city center with their breasts covered in paint or whatever stupid they come up with lol lol
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:50 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Individualism is for some important but don't try to argue that boys dressing up as girls and playing with dolls is something normal or something parents should accept.
I don't think it's very common for boys to dress up like girls, but on the other hand there isn't necessarily a great difference in clothing style between young boys and young girls. Perhaps when it comes to colour. A boy wearing pink (which by the way historically was the colour for boys) isn't a catastrophe. Besides, it's often the parents that pick the clothing.

When you say "playing with dolls" I suppose you exclude Actionman and similar - because that's obviously playing with dolls as well. Barbie? Well, if you ask me both Actionman and Barbie are pretty deplorable toys for either gender. If you mean playing with dolls as in pretending the doll is a baby, then I can't understand the aversion for boys playing with them. In our modern society men are expected to take care of their children just like their mothers do.

I imagine the societal context is a bit different in Poland. One of my favourite stories to tell is the one of a friend to my mother, who had a colleague from America visiting. They were walking in the park in the Summer, when the American suddenly burst out "Wow, you sure do have a lot of gay nannies in Sweden". To her it was a more plausible explanation for all the men with children and trolleys in the park than the men actually being the fathers. To me that sounds insane, but to her the Swedish reality must have seemed just as strange.

Quote:
This is not normal and it's enough for a child to visit a psychologist because this is definitely a kind of disorder which should be fixed like when someone pretends to be of opposite sex.
1) Playing with dolls or traditionally "girly toys" does not make a boy (or the other way around a girl) a transsexual.
2) You can't "cure" transsexuality.

Quote:
How is a boy who dresses up as a girl and plays with dolls supposed to be ready to the future role of a husband and father?
If I turn it around and ask: How would it hurt the future ability of being a husband and a father?

Quote:
As far as books or films are concerned, I always identify with a male character if at all. I don't think this is wrong. Taking away the opportunity to identify with the character makes reading less enjoyable or sometimes simply worthless.
As I said, I don't think the point was to take away the opportunity to identify, but to provide it to a wider audience. I think it inadvertently may have had the opposite effect, but that's another thing.

On the other hand, small children in my experience are much less worried about the importance of being a boy/girl than their parents, so while I and the rest of the post-pubescent world may have trouble identifying with such a character, a child may not.

Quote:
It obviously has nothing to do with natural gender because 'kamień' (a stone) is grammatically masculine but in the real world there is nothing which makes it masculine. I'd say this division is purely for grammatical purposes.
Exactly.

Quote:
I don't imagine having merely one for example possessive pronoun for all genders in my language. It would sound awkward.
That's only because you are not used to it Razz

Quote:
Language evolves when all or vast majority of people start changing it not when a group of selfish feminists and other freaks who think they're important or better than others.
Well, how do you think change is instigated. Do a majority of people suddenly wake up one day thinking "wowzers, today I'm going to make an alteration to my language!"

Of course not. Change has to start somewhere. If people like it it will spread. If not, it will vanish. There's nothing to fear.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:33 pm    Post subject:

My neighbour's sister has lived in Sweden for more than 30 years and when she visited us in July, she told us very interesting and funny stories about the Swedish society. She told me one important thing about the Swedes: In public they pretend to be so open-minded, tolerant etc. but in private they are not like that. I believe this is not only about Swedes but many more so-called tolerant people are in fact not as tolerant as they want to be. How can you explain it?

Transvestites who dress up as women for example because they are comedians are excused because they do it as a part of their job and don't treat is seriously. Those who do it on a daily basis only to draw attention have a sort of psychological disorder and should be isolated and treated. This isn't normal for a male to think he's a woman. It's probably schizophrenia or split personality or other mental illness. I don't understand how men can wear women's clothing, make-up, high heels and think this is normal.. This is sick. evil

Playing with toys has a simple purpose. By playing children learn skills which they will find useful in the future. The traditional division of gender roles has worked fine for centuries and there is no point in opposing it. This is so normal and natural for women to do women jobs and males to do male jobs. This is how nature has shaped us. Wink Watch the "Gender Equality Paradox". You'll find all the answers to your questions about gender, sexand gender roles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5LRdW8xw70

In my country there is an institution which deals with the language and decides what is acceptable in a language and what is not. Rada Języka Polskiego decides about matters like orthography, spelling etc. In a fast-changing world there has to be an institution which deals with the language because language is used everywhere, from everyday conversations to media coverage. People have to know how to speak properly to be understood well and to show respect to other speakers by speaking and writing properly according to the rules of the language. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:16 am    Post subject:

Well there is a difference between personal preference and tolerance.

Just because I hate Licorice does not mean I'd object to other people enjoying it. If I liked licorice I would not have to tolerate it Wink It's hard to change everybody's opinion on something thus tolerance is of the essence in modern society.

There is such a thing as superflous gender differenciation.

Quote:
Tom/he goes to the postoffice.


Why would more than one sentence element have to denote the sex of the Subject?

On the other hand certain societies tend to give their offspring gender unspecific names, but seriously just giving that up is the overall better idea Mr. Green

Quote:
I've got a Friend who's name is Alex

(actually the case) however from this statement you'd only know that I have a friend who's parents did not want to give their ... child a bulky but specific name as Alexander or Alexandra. In German that sentence would go:
Quote:
Ich habe eine Freundin namens Alex
now the only thing ambiguous would be what my exact relation to her is.

PS: while not very good style there often is the option to add a definte article infront of Names. As this has to be congruent to the Noun it gives away the sex of an ambiguous noun.
Quote:
Alex hat gestern Dylan geksst
If you want to give a little more information at the cost of style you might want to say
Quote:
Der Alex hat gestern die Dylan geksst


Lately a buddy of mine (a lieutenant*) was quite upset when he found out a prominent Fantasy-setting has people refer to female NCOs as "Weibelin" and female Captains** "Hauptfrau***" instead of "Frau Weibel" and "Frau Hauptmann".
in being the common suffix for females, Mann and Frau meaning man and woman, tho Frau infront of a Job/title has to be understood as Madame or Ma'am(or Mrs or Ms).
I can understand his agony tho, I would not want some goodie goodie feminists ruin my professions age old Terminology.

*or Senior Lieutenant Confused
** The army ones not sea captains
***this one has the proper meaning mainwife btw
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:49 pm    Post subject:

Tolerance doesn't mean imposing one's view on others. If I don't like something, I'm not going to change my mind if someone tries to enforce his viewpoint. It only creates unneeded tensions and arguments. Wink

Gender unspecific names is actually the worst idea ever. Thank God in Poland these are not allowed. I mean not only banned by law but also grammatically impossible because female names have an ending -a and male names end with a consonant. Sometimes I hear some foreign names and my reaction is usually: What the ***k?! How am I supposed to inflect it? Rolling Eyes

As far as Alex is concerned in case of Polish it's not complicated: Aleksander for a male and Aleksandra for a female. The diminutive forms are: Olek for Aleksander and Ola for Alkeksandra. Aleks is also in use but as it ends with a consonant, it only refers to Aleksander.

Definite articles before names? Umm...no. It sounds weird.

Quote:
Alex hat gestern Dylan geksst

Alex kissed Dylan yesterday. Mr. Green You see, I do remember some German.

The sentence with definite articles before nouns looks weird.

Oh yeah, feminists like ruining the language by inventing awkward words or phrases bur what's their point? Do they want to boost their ego or are they bored or what? Just accept that sometimes there are no female equivalents and adding, as in German, Frau or pani in Polish doesn't hurt anyone. By the way, a Polish noun (a man)
mężczyzna and Russian
мужчина (mużczina) are both masculine in terms of assigning possessives, demonstratives etc. but the noun itself inflects as a female noun because of an ending -a. Does it take away a man its masculinity? Rolling Eyes

Some nouns, mainly borrowed words like poeta, astronauta etc. end with -a but refer both to male professionals. Does it mean they're less masculine or what? Confused
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:56 pm    Post subject:

Haha, like you aren't trying to enforce your opinions on others lol
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:02 pm    Post subject:

By enforcing I mean trying to change someone's point of view by means of emotional blackmail or intimidating. I don't think I try to impose my viewpoint, this is not my goal Wink Discussing and debating is okay as long as nobody tries to persuade someone by means of insulting or harassing. I'll assure you that I'll never insult any of you, this is obvious. Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:48 pm    Post subject:

Wojtek wrote:
My neighbour's sister has lived in Sweden for more than 30 years and when she visited us in July, she told us very interesting and funny stories about the Swedish society. She told me one important thing about the Swedes: In public they pretend to be so open-minded, tolerant etc. but in private they are not like that. I believe this is not only about Swedes but many more so-called tolerant people are in fact not as tolerant as they want to be. How can you explain it?
How does one explain culture?

Even so, it is in the end how you act towards others and how you treat them that actually matters when the topic is how we treat each other. It doesn't really matter much if I'm sorry when I beat up little children and steal their candy, and it doesn't matter if I actually hate holding the door for old ladies as long as I do it.

Quote:
This isn't normal for a male to think he's a woman.
Transsexuality is quite well studied - and while it certainly isn't normal in the sense that it is uncommon, it isn't a disease.

Quote:
I don't understand how men can wear women's clothing, make-up, high heels and think this is normal.
While I certainly agree that there are genetic predispositions that set the genders apart mentally as well as physically, clothing is not part of it. Just take a trip down memory lane and look at old portraits. Make up, wigs, long hair, high heels and even skirt like garments was once very masculine. And that's just in Europe.

Quote:
The traditional division of gender roles has worked fine for centuries and there is no point in opposing it.
There is equally little point in enforcing it. As a matter of fact, there may be some more benefit in enforcing it, as it turns out 'fresh perspective' can do quite a lot to make a business more effective and enjoyable. The point is rarely to put a woman on a "man's job" and have her try to behave exactly like a man and vice versa, but to better exploit the good abilities both genders have to offer.

Quote:
Watch the "Gender Equality Paradox". You'll find all the answers to your questions about gender, sexand gender roles
Watching from a Scandinavian perspective, from the perspective it was made, I think you and I would probably somewhat disagree on what the documentary is actually trying to achieve.

Quote:
People have to know how to speak properly to be understood well and to show respect to other speakers by speaking and writing properly according to the rules of the language. Smile
But actually, it is ultimately the institution that must follow the people. The language the people actually use is after all the actual language.

Quote:
By enforcing I mean trying to change someone's point of view by means of emotional blackmail or intimidating.
You mean like calling them "insane psycho freaks," "silly people" and similar?

Ca Putt wrote:
Ich habe eine Freundin namens Alex
When it's used as "girlfriend" how does Freundin sound to you? I'm talking specifically for somewhat older people now.

In Swedish flickvn/pojkvn is typically used for girlfriend/boyfriend and I always cringe when I hear some 45 year-old refer to "min ***vn". The words sound so childish, or rather youthful that it just seems wrong that someone way past the peek age of settling down and having children should refer to their partner as such. We need better words.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:33 pm    Post subject:

Quote:

Definite articles before names? Umm...no. It sounds weird.
Did I say bad style? I meant terrible style Wink
It sounds like talking to toddlers or popular folk-songs or what you hear at the village currywurst-bude.^^

Quote:

Alex kissed Dylan yesterday. Mr. Green You see, I do remember some German.
correct Smile but the Article makes the difference between a piece of common gossip a Scandalous claim and a news that came but one day to late to be of any interest.

Well it is a bit archaic to refer someone with "frau + standard/male term" instead of adding an in. The only thing making it more archaic would be to use Frulein instead Mr. Green

Frulein Minister!

I would not say you(Wojtek) are imposing your viewpoint on us by force or the like. What I meant was conservative society imposing it's ... time honoured opinions on people. diehard feminists are annoying, heck I even know die-hard feminists that consider them highly annoying Wink however I also sence a little "first world problem"-sydrome here. Afterall most of us and most of the complaining people on the web are white males of a majority religion above the poverty limit.

Quote:
While I certainly agree that there are genetic predispositions that set the genders apart mentally as well as physically, clothing is not part of it. Just take a trip down memory lane and look at old portraits. Make up, wigs, long hair, high heels and even skirt like garments was once very masculine. And that's just in Europe.
The Samnites and other Italic people were quite fond of mini-skirts for that matter.^^

Quote:
When it's used as "girlfriend" how does Freundin sound to you? I'm talking specifically for somewhat older people now.
hmmm? It's actually the common word for "(good) friend" so it can be used by anyone without being "odd", elder people would refer to their good friends like this, unless they use more archaic or specific terms like "Kamerad";"Genosse";"Kumpan";"Kompagnon" instead of the slightly derogatory "Kumpel"* younger people would use**. However there is a little difference. In a non Harem situation using the indefinite Article highly suggests, that it's just a friend, using the definite one(or the possessive pronome) suggests it's the boy/girlfriend. It's merely a hint tho. There still is enough reason to say things like "Your Friend or a friend?" and the like.
There are a few telltale terms that give away the nature of the relation but it's mostly context based.

Quote:
... und dann haut mein freund ihm voll eine rein.

uttered by a guy who is retelling a fight, it's likely to be just a good friend.
uttered by a girl at a bar, it's probably a hint that further fraternising with her might result in considerable nose damage.

* derogatory as it mainly used to denote someone you are befriended with but he's not a good friend.
**hmm all of those are male, while convinced Soldiers or Communists would use "Kameradin" or "Genossin" those are not quite as common.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:52 pm    Post subject:

Well, tolerance has become a buzz word overused by people who misunderstand the word. Tolerance (lat. tolerantia "patient perseverance") means putting up with sb/sth (a person, behaviour etc.) which is different from us in general. Tolerance doesn't mean supporting sth, it can be simply bearing something, dealing with sth, putting up with sth, being patient with sb/sth etc. It means an indifferent/neutral attitude towards what we consider different. We neither try to fight with it nor support it. We're simply indifferent and we put up with it and don't care about somebody's presence or sth.

So many left-wing activists or people like that call for tolerance but they're not tolerant because they can't stand people who have a different point of view. Isn't it like hypocrisy? They want other people to tolerate what they think is right but everyone who doesn't agree is a bigot and thus no tolerance from the tolerant.

I don't really imagine how the brain can be the opposite sex of the body. It's simply biologically impossible for example for a male to be born in a body of a female. The brain produces hormones out of which some are different for males and different for females. A situation when a man who looks like a man but wants to be a female takes female hormones is like a biological paradox. Masculine appearance, male hormones, practically no signs of feminine look and he thinks he's a woman. This is definitely something with the distorted psyche, maybe split personality or schizophrenia with voices telling him he's not a man. Maybe he was brought up without a father and needs to substitute the paternal love he misses with the love of another man. Or he's bored or wants to draw attention because he has nothing to offer to the world.

Maybe in the old times it was fashionable but only among the rich and influential and there was still a division into masculine and feminine clothing and accessories. I'm talking about modern men who dress like women meaning literally wearing female clothes, make up, accessories, all designed exclusively for women. I can understand if it's acting for the sake of a comedian but not as an everyday routine.

In the movie it was explained why women and men take different jobs and what is it's reason. This is not culture because the results are almost the same in all countries and cultures taken into consideration. In poorer regions there is bigger discrepancy but because of unemployment and poverty not equality. That's why this experiment is called the "Gender equality paradox". You may not agree with that but at the end when the comedian presented the results of SCIENTISTS who actually spent DECADES working, the gender lady and the man who were so certain about things they made up, were no longer so sure and couldn't prove their point or give any evidence supporting their claims. They simply made something up without any scientific backup to support their point and wanted people to believe. When actual scientific results were presented, they couldn't refute them but didn't confess they were wrong. The aim of this experiment/documentary is simple: To prove that there is no "cultural gender identity" but biological one. The human sex is biological and nothing and nobody can cheat the nature even by hormones or surgery. Even when they try, the results are miserable and pitiful like a manly woman looking like a mutant. Sad

Wow it took me so long to write it but I'm glad I managed to do it. Wink

Nope, the people are lazy and don't want to learn their native language the way it is. When people use their language in a clumsy manner, it means they're illiterate and have to go back to primary school to learn the basics. The Standard version of a language exists for people to communicate with everyone and everywhere in a place where the language is spoken. It's much easier to communicate with someone who speaks the same as you do and the institution actually helps people communicate by establishing laws which standardize the language. If I travel in Poland to a place where there are national minorities, majority of them will speak to me in General Polish knowing that I don't speak their dialect. The Standard language is for all people in a given place to communicate without any obstacles. Foreigners learn the standardized version of a language to be understood by more people. If I were to learn for example German, I would pick the Standard version instead of Austrian German or any other minor dialect.

I didn't call you insane psycho freaks or silly people. I called feminists this way because what they do i illogical, insane and pointless. I don't accept it because it ruins the language and well-established rules which have worked flawlessly through centuries. You ain't change what's not broken, yeah? I don't see the point in changing the language for the sake of a few people, that's why I don' appreciate their "efforts" to ruin the language.

Freund is a male friend and Freundin is a female one, this is obvious. This is what I was taught at school some time ago. As far as Swedish flickvn/pojkvn are concerned, I am not shocked. I mean, an elderly couple may not be married or someone lost his wife and started dating another woman but thinks he's too old for marriage. Are there separate words for a male friend / boyfriend and female friend / girlfriend in Swedish?

In Polish and Russian there is no difference, but in purely grammatical terms, the same word is used for a boyfriend and for a boy. One can use diminutives to stress that she talks about a small boy not a boyfriend. It's all situation-dependent. In order to avoid ambiguity about the relationship when for example introducing a woman with whom you're not romantically involved the best way is to say it's my friend (Freundin in German, przyjaciłka in Polish and подруга (podruga) in Russian). When it's too much to say she/he's a friend of ours, we can simply say she's our acquaintance (znajomy/znajoma in Polish and знакомый / знакомая (znakomyj / znakomaja).It all depends on the context.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:05 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Well, tolerance has become a buzz word overused by people who misunderstand the word.
As long as you understand what they actually mean, which I think you do unless you are playing dumb, it doesn't really matter, does it?

Quote:
So many left-wing activists or people like that call for tolerance but they're not tolerant because they can't stand people who have a different point of view. Isn't it like hypocrisy?
Not really. Politics is about trying to convince people that you are right. If trying to convince others would be an act of intolerance, every politician calling for tolerance of anything would automatically be a hypocrite.

There is also a difference in what they are asking you to tolerate, and what they are intolerant against. They probably feel, and rightly so, that some things should be tolerated and other things shouldn't. An extreme: would you call it hypocritical to be intolerant to people who approve of genocide of short people, if what your asking of these people is to tolerate people shorter than 150 cm?

Quote:
I don't really imagine how the brain can be the opposite sex of the body.
I'm afraid your self-alleged lack of imagination or limited understanding of biology doesn't make a compelling argument. If you want me to refute it at length I can do so.

Quote:
Maybe in the old times it was fashionable
Which is quite enough to demonstrate that style of clothing largely is a plastic cultural construct and not a biological one, other than the obvious need to facilitate for some physical differences.

Quote:
That's why this experiment is called the "Gender equality paradox".
The experiment isn't called that - it's the observation.

As I said before, I think it is moronic to say gender is a social construct alone. I would however say it is equally moronic to say gender only is a biological concept, and I can guarantee you the researches you so admire in the documentary would say the same.

The observation that there are innate psychological differences between genders does not say anything about morals and how we should act. To claim that would be some form of modern social Darwinism.

Quote:
Nope, the people are lazy and don't want to learn their native language the way it is.
Languages are not set in stone, and they shouldn't be. Of course different situations call upon different levels of language, and the more you know the better. You can't, however, say that a language people actually use isn't real or isn't proper, when it most certainly is within that context. The actual language is the language much more than some codified version of it.

Quote:
I didn't call you insane psycho freaks or silly people.
Do you really think it matters who you call an "insane psycho freak" when you've said you shouldn't call others, people of a differencing opinion, such things?

Quote:
Are there separate words for a male friend / boyfriend and female friend / girlfriend in Swedish?
Yes. Flick/pojkvn implies that it is a partner. Vn simply means friend and is the most commonly used word for friends of either gender. Vninna means female friend, but I would say it is used increasingly less, and only by women. A guy wouldn't say "min vninna".

For partner you could also use tjej (for girlfriend) and kille (for boyfriend). The words stem from Romani Chib and are also used for "girl" and "boy" respectively. It sounds equally silly when old people use it, but there is not really a risk of mix up between person and partner in any context.
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Wojtek
Totenkopfhusar
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Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 579
Location: Wrocław, Poland

PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject:

You can write long essays if you want but I won't believe you anyway. For me everything the left-wing politicians or people say is a pack of lies created to undermine the authority of the Church, especially the Roman Catholic and its values like family and life which I appreciate and respect. Sorry, I'm not open to arguments which are dictated by the gay lobby based on hatred against everything and everyone who embraces values different than the ones of left-wing activists and gay lobby. As this is a thread about languages, I'm going to focus only on languages as this discussion has gone far off-topic.

I know languages change and this is a natural and inevitable process but my point is that using the language improperly no matter whether this is written or spoken language, doesn't make a person trustworthy or convincing. When I hear improper Polish, I immediately think that this person is uneducated or lazy because learning the rules of the language takes place in primary school and as primary school is obligatory for all, this knowledge should never be forgotten. Codification and supervision of the language makes it easier for people to communicate and at the same time promoting the Standard language as a lingua-franca in a given community or society. Example? There is a majority called Silesians in souther Poland concentrated in towns and villages in and around the GOP (grnośląski Okręg Przemysłowy), literally Upper-Silesian Industrial District. Majority of them (mainly the elderly) speak a local dialect/language called Silesian. The language is not codified in any way and is used mainly in everyday communication among the members of the Silesian community. There are countless varieties of this language and they are all different and sometimes even not mutually-comprehensible. When two Silesians meet and start talking in Silesian and they notice that they can't understand each other, they switch to Polish because this is the official language of Poland and then they understand each other very well. They learned this language at school, the Standard version and can communicate with everyone in Poland. They simply speak to non-Silesians, mainly Poles, in Polish. Germans and other national minorities living in Poland also speak Polish because they were born and raised in there. The local dialects are vanishing very quickly mainly due to globalization, the media, schooling and the fact that 96% of inhabitants of Poland consider Polish their only mother tongue and it's the only language they speak at home. What is the situation of the languages of the minorities in your country?
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Ca Putt
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:58 am    Post subject:

Oh, quite, we all know our respective opinions on such matters, and this is the Language thread. So please refrain from sidetracking this. However I have to say that SAOLs points are much more convincing than the world Gay-Bolschewist-conspiracy threory Wink

soo ... Languages Mr. Green
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Wojtek
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:26 pm    Post subject:

I regret that this discussion about gender has started.
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SAOL
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:57 am    Post subject:

Quote:
What is the situation of the languages of the minorities in your country?
Finnish and Sami are the biggest minority languages. In municipalities with a large population of speakers public services are available in those languages, including school and care facilities for the elderly. They have the right to have their contacts with the authorities in their own respective languages.
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