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Harkimo
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:55 am    Post subject:

I think Arabic would be bigger than Sami by now, but that isn't a minority language.
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SAOL
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:22 pm    Post subject:

True, it might be.

The minority languages are supposed to be languages that have been spoken in Sweden historically, and for that Arabic doesn't qualify. At some point now becomes then, however... Confused

I think some of the biggest institutions do issue information and stuff in Arabic. A host of other immigrant languages too, for that matter.
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Wojtek
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:59 pm    Post subject:

From languages which were spoken on the territory of present-day Poland only a few haven't become extinct. Due to turbulent history of this part of Europe and my country itself, the situation of minority languages is, I would say miserable. In a nation where over 97% claim Polish nationality and speak Polish at home it simply doesn't pay off to learn or in some cases even speak other language.

Some ethnic and national minorities have bilingual signs and schools. In some places in opolszczyzna excluding major cities like Opole or Kędzierzyn-Koźle. German is permitted as a second language in administration. The same goes for territories east of Białystok (excluding the city itself) in small villages near the border with Belorussia. North-east of Suwałki - Lithuanian may be used as a second language in official situations in one gmina near the border with Lithuania.
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In all those places minorities are 10% (or slightly more) of the population. In other places in Poland Poles are >90%.
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Even in places where there are a lot of representatives of ethnic or national minorities, the younger generation usually feel they're Polish rather than representatives of minorities and prefer Polish to their minority language.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:57 am    Post subject:

It's quite important though that children with another native language, be they minorities or immigrants, get education in that language. There is quite a lot of research showing it is of great benefit for learning and developing the majority language as well.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:40 am    Post subject:

@SAOL, this is not a benefit knowing the majority A'KA official language of the country but a must. I don't imagine anyone living in a country not knowing the official language. National minorities know the official language, but this is not that obvious in case of immigrants whose parents weren't born there and they themselves didn't live in the country nor they spoke the language.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:40 pm    Post subject:

What I said is that it's a good thing to get taught in your mother tongue if it should differ from the majority language of the country. It also improves the results in the majority language.

Of course it's not a must to know the official language, but it certainly makes life a lot easier. Otherwise you can survive by speaking some third common language. It of course depends somewhat on which country you are talking about, and where in those countries.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:54 pm    Post subject:

What kind of results is it supposed to improve in the language of the majority? Acquiring the language of the minorities only makes people bilingual. My friend's mother's native language is Silesian and she speaks it at home and to people who live in her village. She speaks Polish to other people including her students and coworkers. She speaks Silesian to her husband and children but they reply in Polish because they find it difficult to speak Silesian in spite of the fact that they understand it. Moreover, they all feel they're Polish not Silesian, so there goes sociolinguistics. When I talked to her she spoke Polish even though I wanted to hear some Silesian but I didn't dare to ask lol . I've been to Silesia twice, first in Kędzierzyn-Koźle and Dziergowice and then in Opole.

Even in places with a high concentration of non-Poles it's difficult to distinguish members of national minorities because they all look like Poles and speak the same language. It's is possible to distinguish a foreigner not only by his looks but also his accent. Poles, who are not accustomed to hearing foreigners talk their language, will immediately recognize a foreigner. Foreigners from Slavic countries/communities will pick up Polish quickly because of striking similarities of their languages but their accent is still somewhat different. One classmate, who immigrated from Belarus, was learning Polish before she came here and her Polish was excellent. Of course we all could hear the different accent but it's inevitable and as far as grammar and vocabulary goes, it was almost perfect. The same goes with a friend from Erasmus exchange. She's Sorbian and she picked up Polish very quickly and we could communicate with her in Polish freely. Both of them spoke Polish so well that I found it weird to speak to them in English. Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
What kind of results is it supposed to improve in the language of the majority?
All results. If you moved to Sweden, or rather, if you had moved to Sweden when you were a bit younger, your Swedish would have improved faster and become better if you were also taught Polish simultaneously (in a structured way, not just speaking it at home).

It's interesting how important accent and melody is compared to grammar and to a certain extent vocabulary. A person who speaks perfectly grammatically correct but with awful intonation can be much harder to understand than someone who speaks less grammatically correct but with a spotless cadence. Studies have shown native speakers are pretty good at roughly estimating what other people are talking about even if you muffle the actual words, so that the prosody is all that remains, really.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:09 pm    Post subject:

The earlier one is exposed to a language, the better. I don't think being taught two languages simultaneously makes people speak both of them earlier or better. At the beginning children mix the two languages in many different ways. They can start the sentence in one language and finish in another one or replacing individual words randomly. Bilingual children acquire both languages slower because their young brain is overwhelmed with too much linguistic input and is often confused. The advantages of being bilingual appear later on when they get older and speak both of them fluently. Although I'm not bilingual, I have no doubt that bilingual children learn other languages faster even after they've acquired both languages and learn another one at school. I mentioned examples of my classmates from Lusatia and Belarus. I know that in western and northern Europe people are exposed to their mother language and English since the beginning. Moreover, as far as I'm concerned there are also movies with subtitles on TV rather than dubbing. I think it matters a lot when you hear another language on TV. In other countries the translation was done in a different way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY8QiFu8X6M
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3IUos8Hpys

Accent and melody also have an impact and I think pronunciation matters a lot. Majority of foreigners are unable to pronounce many Polish sounds correctly and in most cases these are pairs of similar sounds which all sound the same for a foreigner but it makes a huge difference for Poles. These pairs are for example: cz and ć / sz and ś / ż and ź. The English the /ʃ/ sound as in shore is something between Polish sz and ś. The English /tʃ/ as in change is something between Polish cz and ć. When someone substitutes the cz or ć with /tʃ/, it's picked up immediately and Poles usually ask the person where he's from or how long he'd been learning Polish. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:53 am    Post subject:

I've been for two weeks in Lithuania. If you wish, I can explain their letters and come up with some funny words. Blah!
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Wojtek
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:07 pm    Post subject:

I envy you Tilanus. I've been to Lithuania but only for one day. I visited Vilnius and Trakai but there is too much to visit and one day is definitely not enough. Lithuanian is an interesting language for a coupe of reasons:
First, it's the most archaic Indo-European language and there are many words which look alike or are identical to their cognates in Sanskrit.
Second, Baltic and Slavic languages share and retain many archaic features which were lost in other Indo-European languages. Many words in Baltic and Slavic languages are very similar and linguists proved that it wasn't a result of language contact but a common past of those two language groups, supposedly as Balto-Slavic language(s), which may have existed a long time ago.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:34 pm    Post subject:

[quote="Tilanus Commodor"]I've been for two weeks in Lithuania. [quote]Why? Confused

Quote:
The earlier one is exposed to a language, the better.
Of course. This would be the case for people who are born in a country by foreign parents. The benefit I'm talking about is however also true for slightly older children who come as fugitives. An Arabic child will learn the new language faster and better if he or she (hen) also is allowed and encouraged to study Arabic at the same time.

That first form of dubbing is horrible. The second one is in my mind only excusable for children who don't yet possess the necessary reading speed to keep up with subtitles.

That's not just for English films, but for films of all languages. Many American films are perhaps better suited than the average because of their simplistic dialogue.

Also, this is a bit funny:
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:42 pm    Post subject:

I think that this is extremely difficult to organize formal and/or compulsory education of a language of immigrants no matter how many of them arrive or live in the country. If one doesn't what what it's all about, it's all about money. I believe this is enough for parents and relatives who know the language to talk in this language to their child. It will acquire the language as their first mother tongue and as it goes to kindergarten he will start acquiring the second one.

My cousin, who lives in Białystok, has a 9 year old son. Now he speaks Polish fluently but he was born in England and spoke no Polish up to the age of 5 if my memory serves me well. My cousin decided to go back to Poland with her son and she placed him in kindergarten and he acquired Polish immediately and when I talked to him in 2011, when he was 6, he understood everything and spoke Polish well. He knows some English, because his father speaks English as his native language, but he speaks English only to his father, which is understandable.

My friend, whose mother speaks Silesian fluently, was exposed to the language but only her mother talked to her in Silesian. Her father and brother talk to her in Polish. She understands Silesian and can come up with many sentences and words but she prefers Polish to Silesian. I believe that the linguistic input of Polish was a lot stronger and that's why she picked up Polish not Silesian. Moreover, there is no formal education of Silesian and at school she was taught Polish only as their native tongue. She claims to have Polish nationality.

Another friend from Silesia speaks Silesian fluently because both her parents are Silesian and she the only language she speaks at home is Silesian. She claims to have both Polish and Silesian nationality.

As far as dubbing is concerned, I see nothing wrong in the first one. I got used to it because this form of dubbing is one of two forms we can encounter on TV. Fairytales and cartoons are usually dubbed, but movies for adults usually have the first form of dubbing. In cinemas fairytales and cartoons are dubbed but sometimes there is another possibility and one can choose the version with subtitles. Movies for adults always have subtitles. Whenever I want to watch a DVD with my mum, she asks me to choose the first form (is it a lector or who reading after the original voices?). I also prefer this solution. I like dubbed movies when the dubbing is well-done. In case of Polish translations, the dubbed versions of cartoons and fairytales are a masterpiece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg_gb2-01CM
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:10 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
If one doesn't what what it's all about, it's all about money.
It's not necessarily very expensive to arrange. Several schools can coordinate their efforts for any given language and share the cost. The teachers aren't typically doing it full time either, but rather as a job on the side.

Quote:
Fairytales and cartoons are usually dubbed, but movies for adults usually have the first form of dubbing.
Why though? Surely adults can read. Why ruin the effort of the original actors with some shitty dub? It's like listening to a symphony whilst wearing ear muffs.

Of course I don't think it's bad to dub things squarely aimed at children, like Disney films and such. But films which shouldn't be viewed by people under the age of 10 anyway?

While the fist few Harry Potter films were dubbed to Swedish, the later ones weren't.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:39 pm    Post subject:

In countries like Poland where schools are underfunded, this is a challenge. Teachers will not agree to teach for free. They deserve renumeration for their efforts. The budget cuts have already had an impact on educations and many, many teachers have been made redundant. What is more, I don't believe there would be many volunteers to learn their minority language at school. Students are already overwhelmed with how much they have to learn.

I got used to the "first type of dubbing" and this is so normal and expectable for me to encounter on TV. I mean when I watch a movie on TV, I don't really feel any sense of loss when the original voice is dubbed afterwards. I prefer a movie with a lector to subtitles. What's more, I talked to my mum about it and she agreed with me. She told she was used to it and preferred lector to subtitles. She wouldn't keep up with the subtitles on TV. She was also surprised that I asked her about it because the lector-like translation was so obvious for her. I don't know, however, what it was like before 1989.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:58 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
In countries like Poland where schools are underfunded, this is a challenge.
Of course. Everything becomes more difficult when there is less money. On the other hand Poland isn't very ethnically divers and doesn't receive an awful lot of immigrants who speak a completely different language, so the need would be less as well.

Quote:
I mean when I watch a movie on TV, I don't really feel any sense of loss when the original voice is dubbed afterwards. I prefer a movie with a lector to subtitles.
I suppose habit plays a role in it. Of course it does. For me though; I can't take it. It's like having two people trying to talk to you at the same time.
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