Italians
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Silmariel
Conquistador
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Joined: 12 Feb 2010
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Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject:

where's the problem? Swiss and the "normal" Germany were formed this way too (in Nappie's time)!
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arcalion
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:37 pm    Post subject:

ok.... is only a litle thing
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masskiller
Tsar
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:46 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Italians are a very good civ overall. Condotteri + Utili + Pavise, Nuncio and some culverins + Architect (and their special card) can be quite a force to stop.


Not to mention an economy that is good enough to make an army of mercs
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wunzigan
Austrian Line Infantry
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:22 pm    Post subject:

For me Italians have imo a small disadvantage. Its not a 2-3 type army like other civ. Like the Old Portugal (Cassador-Organ Guns-Goon) or the French (Cuirasseur+Skirmishers). Italy needs a lot of Micro in battle, since they use at least 4 types of military units, excluding the architect with siege card, and nuncio. Having said this, they are very fun to play.
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masskiller
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 8:52 pm    Post subject:

agree
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wunzigan
Austrian Line Infantry
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Joined: 23 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:49 pm    Post subject:

Some tips for Italians in NR 40 or more. This is for online games only.

Even the italians being strong in eco, its kinda hard to reach score of 2800+. The most I could get was 2500+. But I am sure one of you guys knows how to get a much better score. Anyway here are my pros and cons for this very very unique civ.

PROS:

Fun to play. Huge variety of troops, many diiferent tactics that you can use.

Military: Again, variety of troops. All very effective if microed well. Condottieri, Nuncio, Architect, Utili, Pavise, Culverins, Crossbowmen, etc.....If you keep a varied army and micro well, this army is very, very hard to stop, even for swedish fusiliers. It also makes your army very cost effective.

Strong Eco, make sure you have at least 4 State cards out of the 6 you can choose. Italy is great at Coin, and good at the rest. Villies distribution should be 10 on food, 10 on wood and the rest to gold. You could also leave them all on gold, and use their advantage in the market exchange. If you plan to do that, I highly advise using the Advance Market card. This is the only civ, where you can use this card effectively.

And finally and SUPER important. Fast Shipments, and fast XP gathering.

That Mercenary card that gives you Musketeers, Crossbowmen and pikemen, is really good. I Know its an UP army. But it still is an army. Plus with the state card, it cost only 400 gold, for 18 troops, and with the other card it arrives quite fast. Plus, its unlimited. For treaty games, highly advisable.


CONS:


Strong, but not huge Eco. Villie limit. With 4 State cards, I could get 58 merchants. So use your resources wisely. Even if loosing some through market exchange, its worth it. They gather coin really great. Just make sure use that economic aura bonus card.

Very hard to micro. I know that in treaty games, microing is sometimes useless, but it can be done. And if you can get it done, its a game decider, no matter how you look it at. Now, doing this with Italy requires a lot, and I mean A LOT of practice. You need the architect close to your siege for the bonus, you need the Nuncios, for the condemnation damage, so that they both dont run wherever they want. Utili against cav, pavise or crossbowman for HI, Culverins (instant) and Condottieri for the rest. Italy NEEDS all of these to win games. A 2 of 3 unit combo will not be enough against a good opponent. I would say if you can micro Italians well, you are a hell of a player.


Military are fast, but not instant. Except the Pavise, Xbowmen and Culverins with the right cards, although its not needed. So, again, if you micro well, you wont need it. If you dont, they could run over you in no time.
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malabar
Prussian Landwehr
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Joined: 26 Feb 2010
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Location: France

PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:33 pm    Post subject:

i'd like to see how u can get 2500 with Italians (except if u use water boom) because i tried them many times on land maps and i get around 2k score at 40 (i am an average boomer but 500 difference is weird);
I agreee with all u said maybe except playing pavises and condottieri: or u play pavise (+hussar) , or u play condottieri (+ arba and others inf) because if u up pavises ur condottieris become weaks
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wunzigan
Austrian Line Infantry
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Joined: 23 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:23 pm    Post subject:

Ok, I will give the rough basics to achieve 2500+

The cards needed for this, are all plantations cards, the economic aura card and almost all estates cards. The principle behind this, is to rely mostly on gold for your armies, pavise, and condottieri. Remember that Italians can get some sort of organ guns with a special card to handle infantry overall. Also, Italians also get instant culverins which you should use to defeat artillery. Against cav use Utili. Nuncio are very very important too. So now you know which army you will use, and therefore what resources you need in order to keep pumping your armies. Needless to say, Italy needs a lot of micro even in treaty games. The condottieri I use them only against skirmishers or artillery, otherwise I use Utili against cav and artillery. For Infantry, pavise and these organ guns. Culverins against art. Anyway, hard to micro, but doable.

The objective like in any other civ is to get to imperial before the 20 min mark. Merchants are awesome collecting gold, use the market lend money technologies and the exchange rate to get there asap. With most of these estates cards you should be able to get 55+ merchants. Keep 45 in gold, plantations close to TC (economic aura). 5 in wood, and 5 in food.
At the 35 min mark, switch from gold, 5 to wood, and 5 more to food. Factory on wood. That should be enough to keep your armies pumping out.

This will give you a very complete army, that can handle anything. I managed to kill a swedish player using culverins, hackapells and swedish fusiliers. He could only advance a bit every now and then, until he run out of money. After that it was easy.

If you need screenshots of the deck, score, etc. let me know and I will do it. I like Italians, are fun and challenging to play. In rush games, they are kinda harder for me, especially if facing a polish player.
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malabar
Prussian Landwehr
Prussian Landwehr


Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 17
Location: France

PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:21 pm    Post subject:

ok thank you for taking time to explain, but u dont really show how u get 2500 score at 40. I have fun with Italians too and i dont chop lot of wood because i exchange gold for wood with "South Sea Trade" card. May be i should not play this card to have more points but i doubt it.
About the estates cards, there are 6 (2 per age), useless to get 2 in the same age because it doesnt up twice ur max Merchants (+6). So I just get 3 cards.
If u could post a screenmap at 40 it would be nice Smile

And my bad, Condottieris are considered as mercenaries (so the upgrate in saloon doesnt affect them) so u can play pavises and condottieris

Do u play with hotfixes ? Are u playing on ESO ?

See one of my decks for "Andes" and a screen where i made 2050

Spoiler:



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wunzigan
Austrian Line Infantry
Austrian Line Infantry


Joined: 23 Apr 2010
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject:

Ok Malabar, I have some findings for you. First, I must apologize, because I did some further testing and I only could reach a score of 2241 using South Sea Bubble. However, without that card, I got only a score of 2186. The difference is not much. I will post the 2 screenshots and the 2 decks used for this. I just guess, that when I posted about Italy, the same day I posted about Americans, Prussia, Austria, and Sweden, and with those you can reach easily 2500-2800.

It seems to me that without the South Sea Bubble the resources are more balanced. Also, I use the SSB, at the 20 min mark, so that I can focus all my villies on gold, leaving the factory and the basilicas on food. Check the two screenshots and you will notice the difference in villies.

So, for that issue, I give you the reason. Now, as for the estates cards, you are wrong. There is a 4th Age card, that gives you 3 extra settlers. So instead of having a final count of 54 settlers, you can have 57. I sacrificed the South Sea Bubble. I wonder, if you have both, what effect will do. Maybe I will try it later too. Another, thing I want to try this week, is using all estates cards, and see if there is a difference at all.

Now as for the resources, you might want a bit more wood or food. Well, At 40 min mark, you could switch 30 settlers to get some wood and food, leaving 25+ on plantations. Bear in mind, that I had build like 8 TC, and had all upgrades done regarding to units I will use. I also thought, what if I dont use Condottieri that much? I could save another card, plus they cost 250 gold. Utili 75 g 75f and are a must against cav. With my deck, you have instant Pavise, which might be good. And only cost gold. I think the amount of wood should be enough for culverins. Now, if you dont want to use pavise, or mercenaries, you could save some 4 cards altogether. But remember your army must be based on gold with this strat.

Here are the screenshots, I will post first without south sea bubble, score and deck, and then with SSB, ok?

No SSB w/57 Settlers

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/8404/estatesitaly2186.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4506/treatyestates.jpg

Using SSB w/54 Settlers

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/2512/southseabubbleitaly2241.jpg

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/6287/treatysouthseabubble.jpg
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Harkimo
Emperor
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Joined: 10 May 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:58 pm    Post subject:

Hmm. Sounds effective...
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wunzigan
Austrian Line Infantry
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Joined: 23 Apr 2010
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:05 pm    Post subject:

One more thing malabar.

I see that ur pop count is 239, if you play it smart, you can get 269. When you reach 199 pop, get the 4 Chevaux tech, then get all troops from the church, and finally the organ guns, which you can send 3 times.

Tonight I will try using all the estates with SSB, and see if there is a real difference. Italy is a very fun civ to play. But when I play online, and want to play a safe match, I tend to use Sweden, Swiss or Americans, they have a much stronger eco imo.
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arcalion
Councillor
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:06 pm    Post subject:

wow, nice strategy!and pop 269, very awesome Mr. Green
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wunzigan
Austrian Line Infantry
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:20 pm    Post subject:

Thanks, do you also think that without SSB the score is more balanced in terms of resources? The other way, well, you have over 100k gold, but only 8k in the other 2 categories. Now, these two tests I tried in Sandbox mode. The idea of a good score in treaty, is not who makes the more resources. Its all about the best balanced eco you can get that will give you the ability to stand a long fight. For example, with Sweden you can use Timber export, getting you over 150k gold, if you rely only on culverins, hackapells and swedish fusiliers. Get my point?
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arcalion
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:25 pm    Post subject:

a bit, but now i cant play NE.....
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chris17
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:39 pm    Post subject:

in my opinion italians are very powerful and unique,but they are a bit different in gameplay in comparison to the other civs
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