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GamerLuna
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:32 pm    Post subject:

And whats so good about having private property anyway? Most of these things you talk about that couldnt be produced are just luxury items like iStone
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SAOL
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:03 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Most of these things you talk about that couldnt be produced are just luxury items like iStone
Which, rather crucially, people want.

People are driven by what they want, not by what they need (other than that any need causes want). As soon as the basic requirements of food, water and a home are fulfilled, the attention turns to something else. It's Maslow's hierarchy in a way.

I'm sure you to have plenty of things that you don't need - I certainly do - but that you wouldn't be willing to just give up for the sake of some anonymous person - I'm guilty of this as well. Most of the things you mentioned as good examples of communism does after all require such unnecessary luxury goods to exist.

People won't give up their iPhones to feed Africa, sorry.
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GamerLuna
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:17 pm    Post subject:

I dont , i try to leave as bare basic as i can. And thats what is wrong with modern society , people thinking only about themselves. But without change nothing will go better , so we need to start change together.
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Gustav II Adolf
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject:

One of the problems with communism, there are many, is the so called calculation problem presented by von Mises.
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SAOL
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:43 pm    Post subject:

GamerLuna wrote:
I dont , i try to leave as bare basic as i can. And thats what is wrong with modern society , people thinking only about themselves. But without change nothing will go better , so we need to start change together.
I don't want to be rude, but I think it is far more likely that you're living as basic as you feel comfortable with. That may be a lot more Spartan than many others, but you could probably strip off even more comforts and devote those resources towards polio vaccination programs or something. The further away people are the more difficult it becomes to feel sympathetic. That's just the way things are.

While you're not alone in pointing out that the materialism and excesses of the modern world are unwholesome in more than one way, most people - even those who complain about it - still prefer it. We've gone in the direction we've gone in for a reason. And ultimately we are more emotional than rational creatures.

Gustav wrote:
One of the problems with communism, there are many, is the so called calculation problem presented by von Mises.
Sure. On the other hand it could be argued that the chances of constructing a working, rational, system of economic planning are better today than ever before, much thanks to the internet and its immediacy, machine learning and other things. It is possible to imagine a system where people get to 'vote' on products they want. That information could be used to scale production after demand very quickly, possibly even quicker than a traditional supply/demand/pricing model would allow. It would also minimise problems with over- and underproduction of specific goods.

But apart from being hugely complicated even for basic goods it probably would work much worse for niche products of all varieties, and it would almost certainly decrease variety. And you need that basic communistic mentality to be widespread.

On a different note though, I'd say that the hard core members of the Austrian school are about as loony as their absolute adversaries. They are equally guilty of oversimplifying and rationalising the complex and irrational species we belong to. The free and unregulated market is not the mean to all ends and the solution to all problems.
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sennacherib
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:24 pm    Post subject:

SAOL wrote:
Quote:
Most of these things you talk about that couldnt be produced are just luxury items like iStone
Which, rather crucially, people want.

People are driven by what they want, not by what they need (other than that any need causes want). As soon as the basic requirements of food, water and a home are fulfilled, the attention turns to something else. It's Maslow's hierarchy in a way.

I'm sure you to have plenty of things that you don't need - I certainly do - but that you wouldn't be willing to just give up for the sake of some anonymous person - I'm guilty of this as well. Most of the things you mentioned as good examples of communism does after all require such unnecessary luxury goods to exist.

People won't give up their iPhones to feed Africa, sorry.


yes, you are right, and this is the problem. People are like teenagers with their toys, and they don't care about anything else. Mankind lives now its teenage years; the question is : Is that humanity will reach the adult stage before it's too late?

everything is destroyed; forests, oceans, species, little Peoples and only for 1 thing: money
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SAOL
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:34 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
everything is destroyed; forests, oceans, species, little Peoples and only for 1 thing: money
No, not for money. Money is just the symbolic placeholder. What people are really after is stuff which they perceive as an improvement to their quality of life.

Quote:
People are like teenagers with their toys, and they don't care about anything else. Mankind lives now its teenage years; the question is : Is that humanity will reach the adult stage before it's too late?
If that's the case then mankind has lived in its teenage years since the inception of our species. The outlook of suddenly undergoing a radical change in nature? Quite slim.

The maturity will rather come in the form of new and better ways to manage and recycle resources. People won't give up their smartphones, but they can most likely learn to leave it at a recycling plant instead of throwing it in a rubbish bin when its life has come to an end.

Because of the stabilization of the world's population we will eventually reach a point, though it is absolutely not in the near future because it would first require a rough global equalisation of the standard of life, when the amount of material we can recycle roughly equals that which we need to produce new things. Combine that with more sustainable energy sources, and there you have your 'adulthood'.
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