Some suggestions for Hellenes
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chris17
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject: Some suggestions for Hellenes

first of all,as greek,and trust me I know about these things i am going to write,i want to clarify some things:

1)"Phalangitai" is the plural of the word "Phalangitis".So if they are gonna be called Phalangitai,they should be trained in groups of 5 or ten,otherwise,if they are gonna be trained individually,each this warrior must be called "Phalangitis"

2)"Sfendonetes"(i think "Sfendonitai",but i am not sure,if you have found an article about this name,it is ok) is the plural,too.If this unit is gonna be trained individually it must be called "Sfendonetis" or "Sfendonitis"

3)"Hetairoi" is the plural,too."Hetairos" in singular.

4)"Spartiates" is the plural,too."Spartiatis" in singular.

5)"Hoplites" is plural,too."Hoplitis" in singular


SUGGESTIONS:
1)it would be nice if some of the greek units could be trained in groups.

2)When "Hetairos" is upgraded to imperial,his name could change to "Alexander the Great's Guardian"(as you told me that he was a macedonian cavalry)

3)'Phalangitis" could better be named "Macedonian Phalangitis" because macedonians had THE BEST Phalangitai n ancient Greece

4)"Spartiatis" when upgraded to imperial,could be named "Guardian of Leonidas"(hope you all know this great spartan king,fought with his 300 in Hotgates[Thermopiles])

5)"Hoplitis" could be better named "Athenian Hoplitis",because Athenians had the best hoplites.

6)If the "Hoplites" are named "Athenian Hoplites",it could be nice if when they are upgraded to imperial,were named "Guardian of Pericles"(the first politic that created the democracy in Athens)

7)NEW UNIT-Arrow"Toxotis"(Greek word for "Archer")Armed with a bow and a small shield which covers him when firing-good vs heavy inf.

8)NEW UNIT-Arrow"Akontistis"(Greek word for :Spear Thrower")Light infantry that throws spears and has also a shield.Weak and cheap,good vs. heavy inf.

9)NEW UNIT-Arrow"Myrmidon"(the best greek warriors that sieged Troy-warriors of Achilles)Armed with a sword and a shield-the best hellenic unit.

10)If "Myrmidon" is created for the Hellenes,when upgraded to imperial age he could be called "Achilles' Guardian"

11)NEW UNIT-Arrow"Hypaspistis"(Greek word for a rank like the "Guardian")Armed with a sword and a shield,good vs ligt cav,but overall a weak unit
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Some suggestions for Hellenes

chris17 wrote:
first of all,as greek,and trust me I know about these things i am going to write,i want to clarify some things:

Seeing that you corrected a lot words in singular I could imagine you confuse modern greek with ancient greek? Are you sure you didnt?

Quote:
1)"Phalangitai" is the plural of the word "Phalangitis".So if they are gonna be called Phalangitai,they should be trained in groups of 5 or ten,otherwise,if they are gonna be trained individually,each this warrior must be called "Phalangitis"

It's not possible to give unit groups another name than a single unit of it (they'd all be called "Phalangitai" then). Groups do technically always consist of one unit type.
Of course, if you think of Asian banner armies than it is possible. I'm not sure if we're gonna use it or if it is as easy to as you one might think.

Quote:
SUGGESTIONS:
1)it would be nice if some of the greek units could be trained in groups.

We'll have a look. I'm sure phalangitai will be trained in groups of 5.

Quote:
2)When "Hetairos" is upgraded to imperial,his name could change to "Alexander the Great's Guardian"(as you told me that he was a macedonian cavalry)

It's not completely avoidable to have only short names for units, but in that case it's too long. We try to use short and simple names, however, we love unique names and use English only as some kind of auxiliary language to describe units or technologies with less words than the native language might have.

Quote:
3)'Phalangitis" could better be named "Macedonian Phalangitis" because macedonians had THE BEST Phalangitai n ancient Greece

This will be superflous since Phalangitai can only be build in the "revolution" (called 'Campaign' in TAA), and the revo civ for Hellenes are the Macedonians.

Quote:
4)"Spartiatis" when upgraded to imperial,could be named "Guardian of Leonidas"(hope you all know this great spartan king,fought with his 300 in Hotgates[Thermopiles])

I disagree, this is a myth, especially the amout of Spartan warriors is a biased exaggeration of Hellenic authors. Furthermore we don't want to portrait historical characters too much, but like to stay between a specific personality and a neutral term for that.

Quote:
5)"Hoplitis" could be better named "Athenian Hoplitis",because Athenians had the best hoplites.

6)If the "Hoplites" are named "Athenian Hoplites",it could be nice if when they are upgraded to imperial,were named "Guardian of Pericles"(the first politic that created the democracy in Athens)

This is a lil problem we face when designing the Hellenic civ. Since the Ancient Greeks shared a similar culture, but not something that you could describe as unified empire. This influenced our politician concept for Hellenes, you choose between poleis instead of politicians. Of course, the poleis are always combined with a character too, so it's like "Sparta | The Warlord [preferring a native term]" (just as example).

It'd be a bit weird if you choose Sparta and lead Athenian Hoplitai into battle, but I agree that Athenian Hoplitai were probably the best.

Quote:
7)NEW UNIT-Arrow"Toxotis"(Greek word for "Archer")Armed with a bow and a small shield which covers him when firing-good vs heavy inf.

8)NEW UNIT-Arrow"Akontistis"(Greek word for :Spear Thrower")Light infantry that throws spears and has also a shield.Weak and cheap,good vs. heavy inf.

Yes, these units have already been planned. The Toxotes might get a shield as an upgrade (not from the beginning on).

Quote:
9)NEW UNIT-Arrow"Myrmidon"(the best greek warriors that sieged Troy-warriors of Achilles)Armed with a sword and a shield-the best hellenic unit.

10)If "Myrmidon" is created for the Hellenes,when upgraded to imperial age he could be called "Achilles' Guardian"

Clearly no, the Myrmidons are an elite group of warriors around a fictive character. Furthermore the siege of troy is a very early event in the history of Ancient Greeks and thus - most probably - too early for our timeframe. We'd have that discussion in intern forum already, I did suggest a few units, but Ca Putt just disagreed.

Quote:
11)NEW UNIT-Arrow"Hypaspistis"(Greek word for a rank like the "Guardian")Armed with a sword and a shield,good vs ligt cav,but overall a weak unit

I disagree that this is a weak unit, Hypaspistai (wasnt it literally "silver shields"?) are protecting the flanks of the Phalanx, they are elitary.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:11 pm    Post subject:

tilanus,i am sure about the singular and plural(but i made a mistake that you corrected-hoplitai and NOT hoplites).howver it is like musketeer->musketeers,hoplitis->hoplitai.these singulars existed in ancient greek,we have learnt them in school.and you are right,hypaspistai were powerful,but if you created myrmidones,hellenes would have 2 very good units armed with shield and sword.but now you can depict their power Devil btw will the hypaspistai be included? Confused
as phalangitai will be trainable at groups they can still be named phalangitai.but one single phalanx warrior is called phalangitis,as spartiatis,hoplitis,toxotis,akontistis Cool and i am SURE about these(all words have plural and singular Surprised )
the idea of toxotes and akontstes included is great,i love these units Mr. Green
but i think that phalangitai must be trainable in skirmish,too. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:31 pm    Post subject:

chris17 wrote:
tilanus,i am sure about the singular and plural(but i made a mistake that you corrected-hoplitai and NOT hoplites).howver it is like musketeer->musketeers,hoplitis->hoplitai.these singulars existed in ancient greek,we have learnt them in school.

Right, but obviously not all plurals and singulars are the same. In case you have trustful, authentic sources you can give us these names. How good is your Ancient Greek skill in general? What about your vocabulary and grammar? Can you construct little sentences and term with correct cases?
Or at least, have you good sources to look that up?

Quote:
and you are right,hypaspistai were powerful,but if you created myrmidones,hellenes would have 2 very good units armed with shield and sword.but now you can depict their power Devil btw will the hypaspistai be included? Confused

Yes.
Quote:
as phalangitai will be trainable at groups they can still be named phalangitai.but one single phalanx warrior is called phalangitis,as spartiatis,hoplitis,toxotis,akontistis Cool and i am SURE about these(all words have plural and singular Surprised )

You didnt get my point. In case you train units in a group the name of the group is set up like [Number]+[Unit Name], so it'd be "5 Phalangitis" instead of Phalangitai, I'd have to call the SINGLE unit Phalangitai, which would be wrong.

Quote:
but i think that phalangitai must be trainable in skirmish,too. Rolling Eyes

You didnt read carefully. "Campaign" is not like the Campaign in AoE3, it's our name for the Revolution feature, thus you'll be able to play with Phalangitai in skirmish of course.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject:

o,sorry,i misunderstood Sad and i am sorry,i have no sources,except from my teacher in the private lessons who had studied ancient greeks and speaks perfectly.BUT if you trust me(i think noy)i know for sure which is the singular and whih is the plural Rolling Eyes

P.S. now i understood what you meant about phalangitai Wink so,i agreetheir name should be in singulr Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Some suggestions for Hellenes

Tilanus Commodor wrote:
I disagree that this is a weak unit, Hypaspistai (wasnt it literally "silver shields"?) are protecting the flanks of the Phalanx, they are elitary.

No, the Agyraspides were the silver shields. They were a unit of veteran hypaspistai in Alexander the Great's army. After Alexander died, they had around 10 years betraying people before they were disbanded because they were too hard to control. Perhaps a campaign upgrade for hypapist.

@Tilanus: How about we post a full list of our drafts for the Hellenes; that way chris and other enthusiastic community members can contribute more constructively. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:18 pm    Post subject:

hey great idea,i would like very much to see a whole list of thinks about Hellenes Hooray! Hooray! ^^ and btw i think that the right name is aRgyraspides,cause argyros is the greek(and ancient greek) word for silver Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:35 pm    Post subject:

chris17 wrote:
hey great idea,i would like very much to see a whole list of thinks about Hellenes Hooray! Hooray! ^^ and btw i think that the right name is aRgyraspides,cause argyros is the greek(and ancient greek) word for silver Wink

Yeah, it's Argyraspides, I mistyped it. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:54 pm    Post subject:

thank you tilanus you saved cris from my wrath Mr. Green as it would have been terrible... Devil

IIRC the ancient greek singular for those words is es (with plural ai) whereas new greek is is, beacuse eta was formorly pronounced ē and now i. Spartiates thus was meant as english plural but also is the Ancient greek singular NOT the plural
don't be worried about us useing plural in previews as we most of the time show/speak of multiple units and even more often of english versions as spartiates or hippikons hoplite/s.

Hetairos is correct tho

Quote:

We'll have a look. I'm sure phalangitai will be trained in groups of 5.
due to standard batch training i think this is highly superfluous.

galexander the greats guardian is a) toooo long b) not ancient greek,
afaik that would be agama ton megas alexandros which is rather bulky aswell especially as we already ruled bashkilon ile which means royal sqadron which they were called. for imperial upgrades we planned on useing simple ranks instead of unique names for most greek units^^

Quote:

This will be superflous since Phalangitai can only be build in the "revolution" (called 'Campaign' in TAA), and the revo civ for Hellenes are the Macedonians.
correct and also because it would be like calling redcoats, british redcoats. other people had phalangite(english singular) like units but a real phalangite was always of macedonian design. a more appropriate upgrade would be pezhetairos or agyraspides.

Quote:

It'd be a bit weird if you choose Sparta and lead Athenian Hoplitai into battle, but I agree that Athenian Hoplitai were probably the best.
nope, the athenian hoplites were not the best the athenians were very good in various secondary troop types and fleet but hoplites were not thier speciality, the best were spartan hoplites, thebans and argive hoplites may be considered VERY good aswell. still imperial hoplites will be Epilektoi Hoplitai. or hoplites in singular.

Quote:

I disagree that this is a weak unit, Hypaspistai (wasnt it literally "silver shields"?) are protecting the flanks of the Phalanx, they are elitary.
oh yeah point is that hypaspistes are medium infantry at least the early ones later they were heavier, but they were ELITE they were the triarii of alexanders army as they held the most vulnerable spot of the phalanx thus the right flank. our hypaspists will wear medium armor but are very well trained a very strong unit with more focus on attack and speed than hitpoints. translated: shield covered but some of them were called silvershields agyraspidai so in a way you are correct.

to clarify I agree with all other points of tilanus(and most of those i commented Wink )
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:08 pm    Post subject:

ok,i agree with what you told,too Smile

and moreover,some new suggestions:

1)NEW UNIT->Doriforos(spearman)
2)NEW UNIT->Sarisoforos(man with huge spear,javelin)
3)NEW UNIT->Hippeus(ancient greek word for rider)
4)Check "Platean",1000 of these warriors fought alongside with the athenians in the battle of Marathonas,you may want to include them.


and 5)I do not think that you wil include this idea,but i want to post it:
give ellenes separate villagers for each resource,that will gathar very fast,but also cost much.however hellenes will have a comon villger that gathers all resources,but not so quick.these are the special villagers:

a)Dritomos->(ancient greek word for woodcutter)-gathers only WOOD
b)Agrotis->(ancient greek word for farmer[but i am not 100% sure]-gathers BERRIES,from FARMS and PLANTATIONS
c)Metalleus->(ancient greek word for miner)-gathers only from COIN MINES
d)Thireutis->(ancient greek word for hunter)-gathers only from WILD ANIMALS


and i gotta some questions more:
1)which will be the leader of the Hellenes?
2)will you include any captains?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:13 am    Post subject:

chris17 wrote:
ok,i agree with what you told,too Smile

and moreover,some new suggestions:

1)NEW UNIT->Doriforos(spearman)
2)NEW UNIT->Sarisoforos(man with huge spear,javelin)
3)NEW UNIT->Hippeus(ancient greek word for rider)
4)Check "Platean",1000 of these warriors fought alongside with the athenians in the battle of Marathonas,you may want to include them.

Wait, isn't a Doriforos a soldier carrying a Dori...
Isn't that a hoplite?
Sarisoforos is a Phalangite.
Hippeus is one of the units we have already.
Don't know about Plateans.

Quote:
and 5)I do not think that you wil include this idea,but i want to post it:
give ellenes separate villagers for each resource,that will gathar very fast,but also cost much.however hellenes will have a comon villger that gathers all resources,but not so quick.these are the special villagers:

a)Dritomos->(ancient greek word for woodcutter)-gathers only WOOD
b)Agrotis->(ancient greek word for farmer[but i am not 100% sure]-gathers BERRIES,from FARMS and PLANTATIONS
c)Metalleus->(ancient greek word for miner)-gathers only from COIN MINES
d)Thireutis->(ancient greek word for hunter)-gathers only from WILD ANIMALS

I think your extra villagers would just be annoying; we already have slaves and standard villagers, and it would overcomplicate things to have 6 different villager types. xP

Quote:
and i gotta some questions more:
1)which will be the leader of the Hellenes?
2)will you include any captains?

Not sure what you mean here...
The explorer?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:16 pm    Post subject:

what my collegue said.

well doryphoros strictly means all spearmen that wield a standard melee spear(yep the dory) thus a hoplite is a doryphoros yet doryphoros also includes all other spearmen independant of other equipment and social status. thus It's most used for simple levy militia troops. I don't really think we need more spearmen for the hellenes.
sarrisiophoros does mainly reffer to Cavalry who whield long spears whereas the xyston was more successfull in cavalry warfare. for infantry well yeah but we'll just call them phalangites

Planteans, mmmmhhh didn't find much on them only their appearance in Hegemonia total war and a very nice concept. and that the last battle of the second persian invasion. but I think it may be worth a tech or better a HC-shipment.

captains? we have warheroes. but not as explorer explorers are more like in aoe or like in aok for hellens.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject:

i mean are there going to be any units acting like shoguns?(for example leonidas,themistocles e.t.c)?
and:english have queen elizabeth,spanish queen isabella e.t.c.
which leader will the hellenes have?alexander the great maybe? Confused
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:56 pm    Post subject:

Hellens get two sorts of heroes who inspire their troops and are mighty warriors. Romans have highly qualified officers who increace the efficancy of the army.
thus the effect of roman command units on their troops is bigger although the greek heroes are stronger.
we decided to not include hitorical or mythical figures on the battlefield and only allude to some as our age up politicans.

leader, hmm don't really know but I think that can wait a while
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:26 pm    Post subject:

Ah, so Romans get Mansabards and Hellenes Daymos Rolling Eyes lol
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:47 pm    Post subject:

Hum, Romans get the cossacks-style officers, and Hellenes the RON heroes? lol lol

Besides the jokes, you're doing a great work with the Romans and Hellenes, I hope the beta could be releases soon Rolling Eyes

edit: released, rofl*
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